Manchester United banter 80948

 

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14 Nov 2018 11:47:06
There is a point that keeps coming up and I would like to address it. A lot of people, especially those who feel Mourinho can do no wrong want to shift most if not all of the blame on to the players.

The narrative is they are spoilt, lazy and have had too much too young. They aren't prepared to roll their sleeves up and get stuck in. People are point to statistics about distanced covered, number of sprints ect ect as evidence that our players aren't putting in the required effort.

Now I find it hard to disagree, clearly are players aren't putting in 100% effort. Maybe, as seen in a post from Ed002 on the rumour page. Many of our players are looking to leave. So it is hardly surprising they aren't putting in fully committed performances if they aren't fully committed to the club.

Now we have to ask why are they not motivated, why are they not working hard and why don't they want to be at the club.

As a club we have history, prestige and we pay some of the highest wages in world football. Sure to many not nationals Manchester is hardly the most appealing place to live. Yet Man City don't seem to have the same problem convincing players to live and stay in Manchester.

So there must be another reason. Now we aren't looking likely to win anything anytime soon, yet this squad have in recent times won the FA cup, the league cup and the Europa League. Sure these aren't the biggest trophies that players dream about winning, yet it shows that the quality is there to compete for silverware and even win it. As long as the players are playing to their potential and are fully committed.

So this brings us down to the working conditions they find themselves in at the club, questions like playing time, playing style, actively working to improve the players and a generally happy atmosphere around the club.

These things are less easy to understand or define. They are subjective, and as such mean different things to different people. The importance a person places on it carries varying weight.

However, clearly something is amiss within our squad at the moment.

Now many people feel it is the younger generation, they aren't prepared to work hard, they have had too much too young, millionaires by their 21st birthday and a air of self importance about themselves. Yet if this was truly the case then it would be the same for every manager around the world, no teams would be putting in effort, or working hard.

Yet, we know this isn't the case. Liverpool's players work incredibly hard both on an off the pitch. As do Cities, and Spurs and Chelsea's and even Arsenals are showing renewed work rate and determination this season. So around the EPL there doesn't seem to be a serious or even a minor problem of players not being prepared to work hard.

So why don't our players share the same drive, determination and work rate?

The simple answer is that their manager doesn't inspire it in his players. Yes players are clearly different in their outlook to those of 10, 20 or 30 years ago. The world changes, evolves and moves on. We as people change, grow and evolve as we move through life.

It was noted by many of the class of 92 that Sir Alex brought out the "Hairdryer" less and less often as he aged. I would say that is because Sir Alex was aware of it's effectiveness waning as players attitudes evolved as time moved on. Sir Alex was able to maintain such longevity because he adapted his methods as time went by. How he did things in the late 80's, the mid 90's the early 00's and the late 00's evolved and changed significantly.

Now we currently have one of the most successful managers currently managing in world football, yet the polish seems to have worn off somewhat. His light has dimmed, the twinkle is rarely seen in his eye. It has been replaced with a scowl, a sneer, a beating of the drum as he states his past glories. Mourinho is still a hugely knowledgeable man when it comes to football, yet his approach doesn't seem to have changed that much. During his time at Porto, Chelsea and Inter his players would run through brick walls for him. Yet as seen during his time at Real Madrid, his second spell and Chelsea and now with us. His players are questioning his methods, and as such are not as committed to his way of playing. The players he seems to have on his side are those in their late 20's/ early 30's. The last of the generation that would react to his style of management. The younger players, are kicking out, they don't like his methods or style.

Is that entirely surprising? I am 31, yet I would not react well with some of the things he has done with our players. His down right bullying of Luke Shaw. His throwing of players under the bus every time something goes wrong. I am of the generation that if my boss treats me poorly I look for a new job. And that is the same generation as many of our players. Maybe once the players were prepared to take such treatment and react with an I'll show you attitude. Now though the players will have the attitude of I'll show you what I can do at another club because I don't have to put up with this.

We can't change the world or the growth of society, all we can do is adapt to the new world. Jose Mourinho doesn't appear to be doing that, and that is why his best days are behind him now. I am sure Mourinho will have success again, in the same way that LvG won the Eredivisie with AZ Alkmaar in 2009. However, it is likely that it will be the anomaly rather than the norm. Jose won nothing last season and unless a miracle happens he will win nothing this season. The first time in his career that he will have won nothing in two years. We are already at the longest point he has gone without winning the league title, and that will be extended this season.

He is increasingly looking like yesterdays man, a hugely successful, though past his best version of what he used to be. It is a shame, and it is THE reason why he won't have anymore success at our club. He has burned too many bridges, he has turned too many players against him. To fix this he would need to sell 10-12 players and buy 8-10 new ones. In a market where a good player costs 50m that is 400-500m worth of players needed. While we would be lucky to get 100-150m for the players leaving.

The board at this point just aren't going to back him to that extent. Nor should they. He has burned bridges with many of them, as seen by them instructing him to quieten down and stop talking out against the club.

The Jose saga has an air on inevitability about it now, it is a case of when and not if. Personally I feel keeping in place for as long as possible while vital changes are made behind the scene is probably best. We are paying the price for having a man who knows little about football in charge of footballing decisions within the club. We will continue to have these problems while he keeps making the decisions which is why I feel it is best to keep Jose and the avoid hiring another manager until a new person who has a better understanding of football is in charge of those decisions.

Agree26 Disagree22

14 Nov 2018 12:41:22
Good post and well structured.

It’s doomed to fail, but so is the next man given the current lack of structure.

If Mourinho, one of the most decorated managers in history got get us to sing a tune then I highly doubt someone else will.

14 Nov 2018 13:21:31
Fresh
Really because there are many teams playing very good football all over the world .
Why can't Manchester United?

14 Nov 2018 13:53:27
Great post. Let's hope they don't use that tactic too long or else some of our best players will be gone ie. De Gea, Martial, before the new Director of Football and manager come in. We live in hope.

14 Nov 2018 14:08:27
Agree with Fresh. The problem is not just Mourinho. When Fergie left, we not only lost a long serving manager but lost a whole structure, how things were run and handled. Right now we don't have a concrete idea. I can't think of a club more in need of a DoF type person than our club. We need to have a clear vision and work towards it. It's easy for everyone to rave about City and Pep and how he has got them going so easily yet people seem to completely ignore the fact that they were moving in this direction for a long time. They already had a structure built with a vision of what we are seeing right now.
City had the structure and personnel in place a long time before Pep took over. They had a clear idea of how and where they want to be in. Thus now they have a concrete identity.

And before anyone says anything, let me put this out, I am not a Mourinho fan, I am not someone who believes he can't do no wrong. But I think people need to realise that Mounting is not the only issue here and getting rid of him doesn't instantly solve our problem. I think whatever ends up happening in the future, going into next season we not just need a manager in charge nut I believe we need a concrete plan, an idea of where we want to be 3years, 5 yrs or more down the line.


Also I saw people suggesting guys like Howe for managers role to replace Mourinho. I think that would be a huge step back. I am not implying that Howe is not good (IMO not proven enough to be utd boss right now) but for him to succeed he needs a strong personality, a figure above him to guide him imo. A "dof" of sorts.

14 Nov 2018 15:14:06
Fresh, Jose may be highly decorated, yet his style doesn't resonate with modern young players. As such his past glories mean little if he can't inspire the modern player to play to their potential.

We don't need a manager with the same level of past success as Mourinho, just one who can get 100% or near to out of our current players. I genuinely believe we have one of the top three squads in the EPL. However, we play like we have one of the bottom three squads. Previous success is no guarantee of future success. The footballing landscape has changed dramatically in the last 20 years, what it once took to be successful doesn't work now.

Killerscones, That is the worry. However, the next managerial appointment is becoming more and more vital. That's why it has to be right. If we lose one or two players then so be it. If we hire the wrong guy we might lose those players and more if we can't get the club moving forward.

Deependra, Your right. It's not just Mourinho. However, he is not the man to move us forward. So we can't go into next season with him at the helm, otherwise its another year lost.
The club needs a new structure, we need a DoF, someone with true understanding of football who can make the footballing decisions. Let Ed keep chasing the commercial deals. While someone more suited searches for our next manager, works with them and the scouts to find and recruit new players, and to determine the footballing identity of the club moving forward and makes sure the hiring of managers, players and staff in the future are aligned with that vision.
Rather than Ed trying to massage his ego by bringing in a big name player who he can slap in a commercial and sell the club to another corporate entity, without the player fitting into the the team or the philosophy of the side.

14 Nov 2018 17:57:51
Or. and just hear me out here. possibly just possibly. the players are not good enough.
Is our first team good enough?

De gea. yes
Young. no
Smalling. no
Lindelof. possibly
Shaw. was a possibly and now looks a probably
Matic. no
Fellaini. no
Herrera. yes. at times
Martial. yes. at times
Rashford. no. not yet. possibly will be
Lingard. probably not. possibly. squad player

That team that played city is just not good enough in my opinion. they try but sometimes are just not good enough.

I see we are linked with Arnautovic again. I'd take him. he is much better than anyone we can play on the right wing.

We need to see Dalot at rb.
We need a world class cb to replace smalling.

14 Nov 2018 18:37:02
I'll be honest. I thought the OP was a DLIB post, Shaps :)

14 Nov 2018 18:39:12
Rosspique, Good enough for what? Are they good enough to be in the top four? absolutely.
Are they good enough to win the league or UCL? probably not, yet I have seen poorer teams win those competitions.

Clearly this side needs a bit of rebuilding to challenge at the highest level.

However, the question isn't are they good enough but are they playing to their potential or even close to it? No they are not.

So the question I ask is do you trust Jose Mourinho, a man unable to get the most out of our players, a man who has brought in 11 players during his time as manager to be the man to continue to buy players who he seemingly can't get the most out of.

We have a core of players in DDG, Bailly (our best defender when on form), Lindelof (current Swedish player of the year), Shaw, Pogba, Herrera, Fred, Mata, Sanchez, Lukaku, Lingard, Martial, Rashford and Lukaku to be playing and performing much better than we are.

Your of the opinion we need to rebuild the squad, so which of Mourinho's signings do you consider a total success?

Grant?
Bailly?
Lindelof?
Dalot?
Matic?
Fred?
Pogba?
Sanchez?
Zlatan?
Lukaku?
or
Mkhitaryan?

Which of those 390m worth of players (and that's not considering that Zlatan and Sanchez came for no fee) do you think proves Jose is the right man to sign more players?
That 390m doesn't take into account wages and agents fees, so you could probably double that figure to work out total cost of players brought to the club by Jose Mourinho.

He can't even get the best out of the players he signed, let alone those already at the club.

We have players capable of playing far better than what we are seeing, we have players capable of finishing in the top four, unfortunately we don't have a manager capable of getting the players to perform to the level required.

14 Nov 2018 19:05:42
Its a combination of both. No manager I the world could win the league with our current squad. A skilfully no chance.
So 2nd is the best we could have done last year or could expect to do this year.
We could possibly match 2nd with another coach playing better football but petsonally i don't think we would have finished as high plain n a more expensive game with this squad.
Every player in every position on sunday city had a better player in their team.
Ddg would not get into the city team as he is not as good on the ball.

So in the summer when jose goes to Madrid our new manager will come in and will stll need to replace a lot of this squad in order to compete for above 2nd.
If anybody thinks otherwise they are completely delusional.

14 Nov 2018 19:47:03
Extremely well thought out and eloquent post Shappy. My opinion of Jose has shifted quite radically recently to an anti-Jose position. I'm not proud of this, however he's made his own bed in this respect. The toxicity begins and ends with him I'm afraid. His only recent saving grace was not related to any of his strengths, it was simply that the club should not concede to player-power simply because they don't like the manager - as much as I understand the reasons why the players may have rebelled.

The problem is that we have players such as Valencia, Young, Jones, Smalling, Rashford (controversial I know) and to an extent even Pogba have done nothing this season to be in a position to rebel. In many different ways they have all let the club down (or in Rashford's case simply not performed to the hype surrounding him. ) Such a conflicting situation. I'm sure some City players don't like Pep, however I bet they respect him. I'm sure that's not the case at United.

I note that certain playermanager relationships are improving, and I do wonder if that is because the players believe (or know) that Jose is on the way out. Maybe he is off to Madrid. Back to Inter. He has friends in high places who still respect him. However this contrasts with a long list of players that still want to leave. Why leave if Jose is? If both are true then that points to a more pervasive institutional problem within the club. Maybe the Glazer penny-pinching conflicts with the lavish growth of culture and playing style across the city. Maybe the more wealthy a person the more lavish and comfortable they expect their surroundings to be.

Either way this mess just has to be too much for even Jose now. January's market will tell us everything we need to know. My guess is that come the summer United will make every effort to lure a certain Argentinian manager from London. Personally I hope they succeed, because trophies aside, there are many things wrong with United at the moment that only a change of manager can bring. I don't see how putting a DOF above Jose makes any difference. For me that's simply another person who can fall out with.

15 Nov 2018 05:12:40
Great post shappy.

Ken you absolutely on point that this squad isn't good enough to win things with or without Mourinho, but is it really so bad that we are 8th and 12 points behind the leaders with just 12 games gone.

I said it last season, sack Mourinho now because next season will be a real downhill ride. Some players need to be replaced but if you spend nearly 400mn and have no successful signing to show for, you shouldn't get more money to waste.

15 Nov 2018 12:49:02
2 of our best players at the moment are Shaw and martial .
2 players who got dogs abuse last year are people were desperate to sell?

15 Nov 2018 14:57:22
They got dpgs abuse and that's why they are playing at the level they are playing currently.

Maybe the rest need this sort of abuse to get playing 2 their potential.

15 Nov 2018 16:04:08
Here's the thing about both Shaw and Martial.

Shaw I can't remember having a bad game under Mourinho. A few average ones no doubt, but he never played badly. Yet Mourinho slated him time and time again. Now I don't think he is playing any better now than the last time he had a run of games. Yet now Mourinho seems to trust him.

Martial whenever he has been given a run of games has always played well, then the moment he has a quiet game he is dropped, then he's in and out of the line up until he is eventually allowed a run of games again and suddenly he looks good again. Until January last season he was probably one of our top three performers, then he was dropped or shunted to the right for Sanchez. Again he is a player Mourinho has slated.

Now I don't see much if any difference in both Shaw's and Martial's performances now to any other point when they were given a run of games.

So have the started doing something different off the pitch which has changed Mourinho's mind, or has be burned so many bridges within the squad that he has no choice but to turn to Shaw and Martial?

15 Nov 2018 16:46:42
Singh
Which is kind of point .
Maybe some of the others aren't the useless . you and others want to make out .
While thinking any player from a different club is world class.

15 Nov 2018 16:47:29
Singh lol they are playing well because they got dogs abuse on this site .

15 Nov 2018 16:48:38
Shappy
That about sums up the martial Shaw situation.

15 Nov 2018 16:59:59
Has the defence improved since shaws imtroduction?

15 Nov 2018 17:08:21
Loll dogs abuse by Mourinho and not us. I don't think any of them give a toss what we say on this site but some of these playwrs probably weren't listening to the manager in a a nice way hence why he decided to use public criticism to staraighten them up.

15 Nov 2018 17:40:29
Well Ken, the main thing that has changed in the defensive line is Shaw has come in for Valencia, with Young switching sides.

So are you suggesting that our poor defensive performances is because Valencia has dropped out of our defence?

I don't think your that foolish. lol.

Our defence has looked poorer due to three main factors.

Firstly Mourinho has said we don't have any good defenders and that appears to have shot down any confidence our defenders had.

Secondly, and probably the most important issue. The form of Matic. He has probably been our poorest performer this season, he looks slow, sluggish and has the turning circle of the RMS Titanic.

Thirdly, DDG's form. He hasn't played badly as such this season. He has just been able to maintain the ridiculous form he had last season. His summer away with Spain seems to have taken the edge off of him. Still a world class keeper, yet he has not reached last seasons level yet.

Our good defensive record last season was built on the great form of Matic for the first 4-5 months of the season, and DDG making saves no one had a right to make.

15 Nov 2018 19:39:53
No shappy i'm not suggesting that its shaws fault of course shappy.
He has had some really good games some average and a couple of poor games. He has done well. But if you care to analyse 64% of goals against us have come down our left this season. He does attack more than young so it leaves us more vulnerable than last season where young was more reserved. that's left smalling more exposed.
Also i agree that matic is in poor form and that's another major contributing factor.
Ddg has also been below his tip top best at times i think your correct there.
I think we all want to see attacking full backs but you need top cb's to pull that off and we don't have them.

15 Nov 2018 20:18:27
Shappy

1) Confidence, I can understand a lack of confidence if out of form or after a few losses, but not if someone says something that might actually be true and doesn’t blow smoke up my nose. These are professionals and motivation should come from wearing that shirt plus pride.
2) Matic, I might be wrong but looks like he is carrying an injury, not a serious one but something that is taking the edge off him. Did I read his fellow internationals saying they are surprised he is playing, why. I suspect that Shaw pushing up more than last season is leaving a hole which Matic can’t cover nor can the two CB’s, particularly because I don’t think either shift across well to cover the full back. They look uncertain exactly when to go. Uncertainty behind Matic means he is looking behind him and positionally neither Shaw or Young are good. Shaw has missed a lot of football and isn’t where he should be for his age.
3) DDG hasn’t looked right since being at the World Cup. Has he got personal issues? Does his other half still live in Madrid? He is coming to an age where he needs to decide if a change is needed, the Spanish camp at the WC may have unsettled his thought process. He isn’t alone in underperforming but again he has had some great defenders in front of him, now he sees people that are patently not to standard and it may bring some disillusionment

Just my thoughts.

15 Nov 2018 20:22:29
Ken
Lol Shaw is playing fine. I know that will hurt .

15 Nov 2018 20:45:37
Why would it hurt? He has done quite well had some very good games. The better he plays the better for all fans surely.

15 Nov 2018 21:23:23
Ken
Better for the fans. Yes
Redman
Matic struggled second half of last season as well .
All players need an arm round the shoulder, or most it's not Roy of the rovers .

15 Nov 2018 22:31:45
So why would it hurt then jred?

15 Nov 2018 23:16:20
Ken
Because you wanted shot, desperate to sell him .
Spent a lot of your spare time on a website slagging him off .
Telling anyone who would listen that a person you don't know had a bad attitude . Wasn't good enough, that you cared mire about selling players like him than who we bought .
But we all support players different ways.

16 Nov 2018 09:46:52
I would have been happy for him to be sold that is correct. Same as i'd be happy to see valencia young smalling jones rojo etc move on.
Shaw has by his own admission improved his attitude and work ethic. His form has improved as a result. He has admitted he did not deserve or was not in the right frame of mind to be in the team last season and endorsed the managers reason for leaving him out.
He has done well since winning his place back in the main. He has to improve further to secure his place in the 1st 11 going forward and there is no reason with his improved work ethic that that can't happen. I hope it does.
Viwes change along with form and effort. If any player that i don't rate personally improves then my view would change.
Thats pretty standard stuff.
If a guy is doing his stuff weekly he gets support if he doesn't then he will be subject to critisism and potential sale.
I would support the manager (whoever it is) before players 8 times out of ten.
You slag off managers before you critisise players. I don't agree with that view but i suppose we all support managers in different ways as much as we do players.
If jose turned it around and wins something will you be hurting? I doubt it i'm sure you will be delighted.
If martial went to madrid and turned into a top player you would be telling us all how right you were. But if jose or when jose has success elsewhere which he will then you will be sining a different tune.







 

 

 
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