14 Apr 2024 09:31:30
One win in seven EPL games, sixth position, 10 points off Spurs and now West Ham are closing in, Chelsea too. Our worst finish was under Moyes, seventh.
It was put to ETH after yesterday that below seventh would be the worst EPL finish, and did he think we would finish above that. ETH stormed out.
Time is up.
14 Apr 2024 10:41:06
7th place, potentially 8th by this afternoon.
14 Apr 2024 10:48:55
I think the writing is on the wall unfortunately. This is starting to have the same feelings as it did in the final weeks of Moyes, LvG, Jose and Ole.
I think EtH knows he will not be manager next season, I think the players know he won't be manager here next season, and I think the press know he won't be manager next season, meaning we have this awkward dead man walking situation.
It won't get better this season, and nothing will happen any time soon. We just have to ride it out for the next month or two until the situation is sorted.
14 Apr 2024 10:55:21
Shappy, every one of those names had different characteristics. The common theme is the players remain whilst the boss gets sacked. Funny old rinse and repeat procedure.
14 Apr 2024 11:28:27
Feasibly, if we play as poorly as we did yesterday, even Bournemouth themselves could catch up with us.
On paper, our next two PL games are winnable, but even Sheffield United and Burnley will fancy something from OT.
Then what?
Away at Palace and Brighton, home to Arsenal and Newcastle - with our current form, I'd be surprised if we got a solitary point from the final 4 games.
14 Apr 2024 12:07:38
Fizz, I think EtH is potentially the best manager we have had post SAF. Or at least the best potential fit for our club.
Yet the way the club has been run top to bottom has made managing our club an impossible task.
Competing at the highest level is hard enough when you have a well run club, it's simply not possible with a badly run club. Certainly not in the competitive environment that is the EPL. Too much money and too many other clubs ready to pounce if you drop your level even by a few percent.
The players are a problem, but I don't entirely blame them. I'm sure they aren't playing badly or lacking motivation because they want the club or the manager at least to fail. They are professional sportsmen, they are super competitive by nature. It's not possible to become a professional footballer without that competitive desire.
I do however believe it's not impossible to lose that drive in the wrong environment. To become too comfortable, unchallenged, and devoid of that fire in your belly.
Do we give the players too much, too soon? Yeah, almost certainly. Big contracts handed out like candy in the playground.
While the clubs decision to hoard players, to not let those who aren't good enough leave (or push them out), means the managers have had to deal with having too many players and not enough time to focus on developing them or a team identity.
Anyone whose tried teaching will tell you, explaining an idea or theory to 10 people and getting them to have a clear understanding of it is far easier than trying to do so with 30 people.
The bloated squad will therefore make it harder for the manager to get his ideas across clearly, and limit his time with each player individually to help them gain a greater understanding of their role within the team. What they need to improve on and how they can do it.
It is also much harder to create a strong team mentality in a bloated squad. Too many players who are on the periphery of the team, knowing they will get limited chances and become demotivated. That sees a drop in the level they train at, which means the first team players are not being pushed as much in training. Which limits their ability to be pushed into peak form.
You then have your little cliques forming, maybe by nationality or common spoken language or culture, or maybe their role in the squad, or due to personality and shared interests. It's impossible to create a strong team dynamic when there are groups within your group. It brings into question where your loyalties lie. Who do you back when you have to choose between the good of the team and one of your mates from your clique?
Has Rashford for example been adversely impacted by the Sancho debacle? Who does he support in that situation? The manager and the team, or his friend?
All the best (certainly the most successful managers) tend to want to work with a smaller group. Jose said he wanted 20 outfield players and 3 goalkeepers. Pep and Klopp have strong squads, but not massive ones. Arteta reduced the size of the Arsenal squad during his time at the club, making it smaller but with higher quality.
You then also have the issue that we have a disjointed squad. I refer to it as the Frankenstein squad, made up of different parts from different managers. There is no clear coherent theme or style of player, making is particularly difficult to choose a style of play that will get the best out of the players we have.
There is no manager in existence who could make this group of players successful under the circumstances that they would find at our club.
There are too many problems, no support from above, and no plan or vision to work towards.
In my opinion EtH has done the best job of keeping the plates spinning under the circumstances he has faced. Is he a perfect manager? Absolutely not, he has his flaws just like any manager.
SAF was probably our best ever manager, yet he still had flaws. He was tactically limited, and would rely heavily on his revolting door of assistant managers to bring in new ideas and help evolve the team to suit the changing game. He could be too outspoken at times, and picked fights he shouldn't have. Such as the one that opened the door to the Glazers buying the club. He also made mistakes by allowing personal opinions to dictate decisions too much. Like giving chances to academy players who signed up to his son's agency, or falling out with certain agents, meaning we couldn't get deals done for their clients, or throwing out members of the media from press conferences leading to an increase in negative media stories around the club.
No one is perfect, even the best. It's about finding the right fit and having the foresight and drive to put into place plans to mitigate those weaknesses or potential flaws.
Like hiring tactically intelligent coaches to support a manager who isn't as tactically knowledgeable.
Or having a clear hiring structure that doesn't give the manager too much power.
Or having someone acting as the bridge between the academy and the first team, someone who can help the club create pathways for the young players to get into the first team.
All of these things are what the new owners are trying to put into place at the club. Highlighting how lacking the club has been in being able to support a manager and create an environment where they can succeed.
EtH has been given too much sway in our signings, possibly because he was aware of the club's poor recruitment and he didn't want to be saddled with players who he didn't want. He isn't an expert in terms of recruitment, it's not a strength of his, yet it's something he has had to do because the structure at the club doesn't support the manager with a good and consistent recruitment plan.
Personally I'd like to see EtH be given a chance with a well set up club. A club that supports him and gives him the chance to succeed.
However, that can only happen if both the manager and the club are willing to work together with a new structure in place.
While there is also a tipping point, a moment where too much water has passed under the bridge and the club and the manager will need a clean break.
A point where too much has happened and it is no longer recoverable for a manager. Maybe too many bridges have been burned, or he is perceived as being undermined and not in control by the players. At that point it becomes too big a task, probably an impossible task to get things turned around and going in the right direction.
Maybe that point has been reached with EtH, if it hasn't yet it feels like it is coming soon.
While I don't want him to fail, and I am certainly not enthusiastic about the potential replacements mooted, if he has or does reach that point then it is best we part ways sooner rather than later.
I think with the right set up and support around him EtH will be a very successful manager. That maybe here, but is looking more likely that it will have to be somewhere else. His style of play and his personality to me suggests that Germany and the Bundesliga might be the best fit for him. Somewhere where a high pressing, transitional game is commonly used and understood by the players. While players due to the culture tend to need less mollycoddling.
I'm still supporting the manager and not calling for his head. But I'm starting to see signs that this might well be the end of the road.
14 Apr 2024 13:11:10
On what metrics do you compare to come to a conclusion that ETH is the best manager we have had since Sir Alex?
It's surely not on how the teams play, the results, the team cohesiveness, the recruitment or even the past record before joining Man Utd. Really curious.
14 Apr 2024 15:19:10
Fizz what players are you talking about.
Only Shaw and rashford stretch back to all managers?
Who are theses players.
Mike, sanzhez darmian Di Maria blind lukaku all won titles since they left.
Moyes no title
Lvg no job
Jose no title no job
Ole no title no job
Ralph no title gone to intl
Who are the players your talking about throwing several managers under the bus
Casimero only played under eth
Anthony only played under eth
Rasmus only player under eth
Mount only players under eth
Malacia only under eth
Onana only under eth
Amrabat regullion like wise.
Garnach mainoo only under eth
Maguire varane awb only under eth and ole
Dalot and lindelof mctom only back to jose is it these 3 your refer to?
Bad managers won nothing of note since they left but you still blame the players and not them
Now we have new players and they are at fault not the manager.
You have taken a stance to blame players for throwing several managers under the bus but it's simply not the case.
14 Apr 2024 16:42:45
Jog on fella. Weed you know what I meant but you just have to be obtuse, don't you? You appear to enjoy stalking people. Must be time to try the "Because he will be eating out of a lunchbox on his own. " gag again. Been a few hours now. It might get funny eventually. Jog on fella.
14 Apr 2024 17:50:33
But which players are you referring to? They are not the same players.
I honestly don't think the players are throwing eth under any bus.
14 Apr 2024 18:38:20
Weed I’m becoming past caring what you think. I’m done playing chess with a pigeon.
14 Apr 2024 21:07:36
Another top top post. Great craic. ?.
14 Apr 2024 22:04:15
Tumbleweed, a group of players can have new members come into their clique, as others leave for instance.
It only needs to be 'the cool group's or whatever to lure in another unsuspecting culprit.
I have zero idea who it might be. It could start with a group of underachievers from the England setup, with a sprinkling of others brought in and out as they are bought/ sold. The mission remains the same. stay on inflated wages for as long as possible, whatever the outcome of the club/ manager.
Don't try to pinpoint posters, it does nothing for you or the forum.
14 Apr 2024 23:04:15
Jimbo I didn't pinpoint anybody. if you happen to disagree with the same person repeatedly it's OK to do so. I've no issue when fizz pokes his type of humour.
I don't think the players have downed tools for eth I think they may be confused and disillusioned and unhappy in their game.
15 Apr 2024 16:03:20
Copy that Tumbleweed, that last statement was more some general advice to all posters ??.