26 Feb 2024 15:59:52
We simply do not have the sort of players with the skills to control the ball for long periods of time. Too many of our squad have a poor first touch, their passing is often inaccurate, under or over- weighted. It's hard enough to break down a team set out to defend deeply even with quality players. So, we tend to rely on the fast break, which sometimes works, but often results in the ball being given away very quickly, as was the case all too frequently against Fulham. Bruno is particularly guilty in this respect. Much was said about our loss of control against Luton, but we had plenty of chances to put that game to bed had we not been so profligate on the break. It wasn't tactics that was the issue, it was lack of cohesive attacking quality and poor decision making.
There is no doubt in my mind that the loss of Shaw and Martinez has been an enormous blow, which has had the effect of aggravating Rashford's slump. It's no coincidence that we were doing better with one or both of them in the team.
A lot of complaints about ETH's tactics, but he's not even blessed with a solid starting XI at the moment, let alone a plethora of potential impact substitutes. I'm not advocating for or against ETH. The primary goal of the new team running the football operations will be to change the structure and culture. Only then will the manager's fate will be decided and it too will depend on whether the outside world of football sees the job as no longer a poison chalice.
26 Feb 2024 16:30:42
On Saturday it was our 34th starting line up of the season, 23rd different back 4 combination, 13th different forward combination. This is why we aren’t getting any consistency and cohesion within the team.
26 Feb 2024 16:35:23
shawthing my argument, does fulham have a better squad?
Did they not have injuries?
Dis they replace their really good striker in Mitrovic?
Were we playing away?
This is not a one-off.
Why does he keep starting Rashford?
Why is our midfield always so exposed, there were instances they were more fulham guys running against us.
Why is Forson being started? Is it because he's better or is it because he wants him to sign a new contract?
26 Feb 2024 16:51:06
Yes we may be suited to transition. But why are teams consistently running through the centre of the pitch week after week.
My concern for ten hag is, I don’t think the players have downed tools. I genuinely don’t think his system that we are seeing will work even with everyone back. It didn’t against wolves or spurs at the start of the season. Or wolves away for that matter.
26 Feb 2024 18:58:49
It did work against wolves away caolin. It was only after martinez and cassemiro went off that wolves started to come back into the game. It is the same answer to everyone's questions. When we have the players fit in key positions to play with the ball and on the front foot, we do it. When we lose key players for that system (martinez, shaw, cassemiro, hoyland) we struggle. And when you add in that our two so called stars, rashford and Fernandes, are playing terrible this is causing us to struggle against strong mid table teams. Fulham and wolves are no mugs.
26 Feb 2024 19:06:30
Quite simply we don't have 11 players all suited to playing the same style of play.
10 years of our recruitment swinging this way then that, of muddled thinking and unclear direction. Of no plan or vision.
We have players like Shaw, Dalot and Martinez who have the technical skills to play out from the back. The rest of the defence can't really do that.
We have players like Maguire, Lindelof and AWB who are suited to playing a deep defence as they either lack the pace or mobility to get back into space, the tactical intelligence to defend over larger areas or are limited in technical quality to play higher up the pitch.
That's half a defence who needs to play a low block and half that are suited to playing possession football.
You then have Varane and Evans who are defensively intelligent, and can play in several different systems. But either lack the passing range or pace to excel in either a high line or possession based system.
Moving into midfield we have a similar miss mash of players. We don't have any player who you would call a deep lying playmaker. Someone who is an expert at taking the ball under pressure, dropping a shoulder and picking out a progressive pass forward.
So when we don't have Martinez and Shaw on the pitch we have literally no one in the defensive or middle thirds who can consistently progress the ball forward.
Leaving us to either lumping the ball forward and hoping a forward can get on to it. Or trying to press teams high to win the ball back already in the attacking third.
Beyond those two methods we have absolutely no way to progress the ball from back to front without Shaw and Martinez.
In the forward line we have players who are more interested in scoring than creating goals. There is also limited work rate, and a lack of tactical intelligence to effectively press the opposition high. We have Bruno charging around but not pressing as a team, Rashford not tracking back, and Antony not taking his man on and just cutting in on his left to shoot and put the fear of god into Doris sitting happily in row Z.
I know lots of people keep wanting to see Rashford and Bruno dropped.
That leaves Højlund, Garnacho, Antony, Amad, Shoretire, and Forson as the only other options. So from them who would be your front four?
Antony isn't good enough, Højlund and Amad have had injury issues and probably shouldn't play every week. The other three are all 19 or younger.
We have zero depth up front, so dropping Rashford and Bruno just isn't a viable option.
So we have a defence that will always have at least one or two players not playing in a way that plays to their strengths. Making our defence have a tendency to drop a little deeper to try and cover themselves.
We then have a forward line that is inconsistent with their work rate a s overly focused on trying to shoot rather than create. They have a tendency to play slightly higher.
With the forwards tending to stay high, and the defence dropping deep we have a massive space in midfield for our midfielders to cover. Do they play higher and support the attack and leave the defence utterly exposed, or do they drop deeper to cover the defence and leave our attack totally isolated.
All I hear and read is United fans b****ing about the team having no clear style, or way of playing. I'm yet to hear or read from a single one of them a viable solution.
How would you play, who would you pick, and what would be your tactics to get the best out of all 11 players on the pitch?
There quite simply isn't a way to get this incoherent squad of misfits and blaggers to play in a cohesive way that gets the best out of all the players on the pitch.
You will always have 3, 4 or even 5 players having to compromise and play in a way that isn't suited to their skill set.
This is exasperated when the team has extensive injuries meaning a constant chopping and changing and no way of even getting 5 players who all suit the same style of play on the pitch at the same time.
So rather than cry and whinge like a petulant child, be a man and come up with a solution.
26 Feb 2024 20:27:49
3 of our best four players are currently injured. It was no surprise that our form improved when Shaw, Martinez and Hojlund started.
Our problem is the replacements for those guys, are so poor and a total drop-off in quality.
ETH may not last after the summer. Personally, I think he's been handed a sh1t sandwich, and deserves a bit more time. Trophy last season, crap first half of this season, but unbeaten this year until the weekend.
That one result won't change my view on him, but I appreciate those higher up may well have their ideas for change, and I'll support their decision either way. And maybe he is just out of his depth. Never like to see someone lose their job, mind.
26 Feb 2024 20:01:25
But he bought or loaned quite a few of them, everyone does have injuries Liverpool won a cup with all there best players missing but still they play the way of the manager. No one got any idea of the Ten way, is it a press is it not, is it pass and move is it hit and hope is it on the break and that’s just layman’s terms nothing technical, we are a mess and you can’t seriously tell me we are looking any better then 2 years ago and that’s 400 million later.
Total shambles, it’s quite clear Ten going at end of season I have no concerns over that, I just hope all the coaches go too, because they seriously have to be questioned….
26 Feb 2024 20:40:05
I think that’s a fair assessment Shappy!
Some of us have argued for a long time that in many ways getting rid of players has been just as important as buying them. Those that don’t fit the system must be moved on and cannot be allowed to linger around the squad and block the pathway for more suitable players in the future.
If we sack EtH now the next manager will only inherit an even more unbalanced squad. At some point you have to trust the process and believe you have the right man.
I think there is evidence EtH can build an existing team. Martinez makes a huge difference, as does Shaw. If you could add a really good deep lying playmaker in addition to the likes of Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund the ingredients of a really good team are there. Squad depth is a huge issue, having the right type of players to step in and cover.
It takes take to build a squad. It’s hard to stay patient, especially after results like Saturday but panic now and the whole process starts again.
Personally I would like INEOS to build the structure first, appointing a new DoF and recruitment team. Set the philosophy and identity for the team moving forward and then make a decision about the manager.
Find a really good partner for Martinez, a deep lying play maker to progress the ball through midfield and another CF to ease the burden on Hojlund and I think we’ll see a much better team moving forward. Small steps rather than giant leaps. The caveat being keeping key players free from long term injuries.
26 Feb 2024 20:59:29
Klopp has been at liverpool for 8 years. His whole club is geared towards playing his style.
Eth has been at utd for 18 months, the whole club was geared towards playing a completely different style of football. And he's has a crazy number of injuries to boot.
You are providing examples of why sticking with a manager and building throughout the club is a good idea. Because the whole youth setup can be built to be consistent with the clubs vision.
Staring to think this fan base doesn't deserve success again. At some point you have to realise where you are and stop sticking a plaster over the wound. We aren't the middle of a total rebuild - and no, it shouldn't be better than this while we do it. Rash and Fernandes are probably playing bad because they know they won't be around much longer. The rot must go before we cN heal. Eth is not the rot.
26 Feb 2024 21:29:43
Strangeways the argument about klopp and Liverpool injuries is so delusional!
Everyone at Liverpool is there because kloppy has spent 8 years building that squad! We have injuries and replace players with Jose or ole players! Do you actually understand that? It’s not going to be pretty, or work fantastically well is it, how can it!
27 Feb 2024 06:42:20
Not quite true though is it Chris, 2 years in and zero pattern of play some awful awful buys and loans, seriously poor in game management poor team selections, not improved one single player, purchased or loaned half a squad and the football is dire, caused so many rifts rightly or wrongly its poor management, rifts need to be dealt with in an unharmful way to the process not public spats, that’s poor management that’s before we even get to some of his stupid statements.
27 Feb 2024 07:16:00
Good post Dodgy ?.
27 Feb 2024 08:26:33
ETH Atm has 4 players he bought at his disposal. Ericksen, Cas, Antony, Onana.
This 400 mill constantly talked about is nonsense. 7 of 11 week in week out are players who have been here or from the academy.
Malacia, Martinez, Hoiland, Mount all injured. 3 have hardly played this year. Martinez has played a total of 4 games, Malacia has not played since last April, Mount I think 4/ 5. Its not his team Folks. Its a mish mash of players that go back to 3 previous managers and him trying to put a line up out papering the cracks.
I will personally pass Judgment on him post this summer and if we have actually made any significant changes to this squad. Building something is not an elevator ride straight upwards and there are setbacks along the way.
Liverpool bought 4 mids last year and 4 front line players the year before. They have a lot of debt in that squad and options. All proper players and proper money spend and no funky loan deals and scrapping the bottom of the market.
27 Feb 2024 09:05:10
For me, when attaching our rest defence get sloppy, 90% of the time they are in the right position but because the defends drop off so much leaving huge amount of space behind the 2 in midfield teams exploit the issue. The midfield gets left with two decisions drop back or attack the man. For me, the defence drops off due to a lack of pace and confidence.
27 Feb 2024 09:40:13
Liverpool fan here and just wanted to jump in because there was a mention on Klopp. What DodgyBanter said is right. Klopp has been with us for 8 years. All the current players are his and the youth team is coached with his ethos and style of play. The only player left from the Rodgers' era now is Gomez and even then, he himself was still relatively new when Klopp first came in.
I would also like to add that Klopp had the ability to get rid of the players that did not fit his playstyle. In the first two years of his tenure, Klopp had already sold Benteke, Balotelli, Skrtel, Ibe, Lucas, Sakho, and Allen among all the other fringe players. So, Klopp already was able to form his own team in that time. Compare this to the players ETH who still has to deal with players LvG bought that is still at the club, much less those from Mourinho and Ole.
It remains to be seen if ETH is the man to lead you guys forward, but context is important and the hand he has been dealt with is atrocious.
27 Feb 2024 09:45:08
Rewz
Spot on. Our defenders are petrified of players getting behind them. they drop off.
27 Feb 2024 10:22:45
We can go over it again and again and again but the fact is that this is the worse brand of football since Fergie retired.
They are absolutely horrible to watch!
I always have been a fan of ETH but some of the absolute crap he's spouting at the moment is just embarrassing. How can he stand in front of a camera and keep saying we are on the right path, we are improving when clearly we are not improving. The fans are not stupid, we do watch every game Eric and the results don't lie.
27 Feb 2024 10:41:56
If we don’t have the players suited to play a certain way, then don’t play it.
27 Feb 2024 11:02:47
Caolan, we don't have the players to play ANY specific way to the standard and at the consistency needed.
Like I've said, lots of people complaining about the style of play or the tactics, but no one prepared to put their neck out and actually suggest a solution.
How would you set this squad up to play? Who would you pick in your starting 11, what would be the tactics and how does that get the best out of those 11 players, or at least mitigate their weaknesses.
Still no one can give a suggestion despite shooting down a guy for not coming up with this impossible solution.
27 Feb 2024 12:22:43
Thanks Dracred, good to have some intelligent contribution rather than the normal nonsense about style of play, too much space in midfield or "it should better than this".
The best managers are supported by their club, players are removed and new players brought in. Many managers need time to make the changes required. And it often doesn't look good while that process is underway.
27 Feb 2024 12:36:20
Shappy
You could put forward 10 solutions but they are all irrelevant.
It's up to the coach to sort it out.
You can watch 10 movies and decide they are all no good but are you going to start suggesting to the director/ producer how to make a movie? I'd say no because you don't know how to direct a movie no more than you know how to manage or set up a professional football team. No more than any of us do.
We can only comment on what we see not how to do it imo.
Eth has to find solutions. Same way as every other manager that has problems.
No doubt he is doing his best under difficult circumstances.
I question whether his best will be good enough under any circumstances.
I've seen no evidence that he could.
For me it's not a question of 'is eth the problem' I don't think anybody believes he is the sole problem. I think the question is if eth is the solution even under a better set up. I don't think he will be our solution under any set up. I come to that conclusion based on a lot of his personality traits that I've seen over the last 2 years.
But let's wait and see there maybe a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that is not evident to me. But the experts will soon make their call based on seeing things at close quarters.
27 Feb 2024 13:26:33
Dodgy
Should moyes have been sacked?
Should lvg have been sacked?
Should ole have been sacked?
Should ole have been sacked?
Should Potter have been sacked
Should Hodgesdon have been sacked for Klopp?
Should Atkinson have been sacked for fergie?
Should pelligrini been sacked for pep?
Should touchel be sacked by bayern?
On and on the list goes.
27 Feb 2024 13:29:52
If we don't have players to control the ball for long periods of time. First off they shouldn't be pro footballers and secondly they shouldn't be playing for Manchester United.
27 Feb 2024 13:31:27
Tumble/ Ken, if your opinion is always going to be that all other opinions are irrelevant as it's not up to us, then I suppose there's no point in any forum in the world existing? Shall we all go home?
27 Feb 2024 13:45:26
Shappy, that’s rubbish that players can’t play any style.
The man is paid millions of pounds a year. He’s brought in a load of players. Last year was 10x better than this. We all said if we had a centre forward to finish the missed chances we could be going somewhere.
Why the major shift? Look at carragher’s analysis of the gaps in the team. The confusion in instruction from kick off.
We had one of the best defensive records this season and have now conceded half the shots city have all season in our last 5 games. I like Ten Hag, but this is utter dross and he does not deserve to be in the job next season, and I’d say if we didn’t have the off field things going on, he’d have been sacked pre Christmas.
27 Feb 2024 14:13:18
Tumbleweed, you are just being impatient. But you are not listening or open to what anyone says. You have made up your mind.
Just some food for thought:
Ten hag has our highest ever win ratio for a manager. HIGHEST EVER.
Last year in his first season he finished 3rd and won a trophy.
This season he has has terrible injury crises throughout the whole season, the club has been up for sale with the CEO sacked, his two star players have terrible form, one player went on strike, two players have been in the news for domestic abuse allegations, he has changed his GK (who has taken some time to settle) he has a new captain, financial fair play has dictated that we cannot bring in any players we need desperately to cover positions. His back up striker has decided that rather than be sold, he will have an operation and run down his contract now - meaning we can't afford cover for Hoyland. Added to all that, the media clearly have an agenda against him and some toxic fans have already decided after less than two years that they want to bring in someone else.
We will not get any better until we take some time to sort this out. It takes patience, perseverance and backing of the manager.
Media and fans are blowing up about sacking him. But we are one of the form teams in the EPL (4 wins from last 5). In the last game, we had Lindelof at LB and cassemiro went off injured, yet if mcguire scores that header we probably win. Crazy game, ain't it!
27 Feb 2024 14:37:57
Yeah yeah db you said all that about ole too.
Your right I've made my own mine up on eth.
Let's see what the experts do in the summer.
There is no reason you need to listen to me nor I you. I have my pinyin you have yours. Neither are important to the club. K etc see what the folk that are experts do next. Then you have a go at them if you don't agree. What I think has no importance. Make your points and I'll make mine.
Spenno
All opinions on here are irrelevant to the decision makers. Do you dispute that? Paying inflated relevance or importance to our opinions is daft as they are totally irrelevant to the people who make the decisions.
27 Feb 2024 14:46:56
I'm not disputing those things at all Tumble. But it's fun (or at least meant to be! ) debating them, so why not?
27 Feb 2024 15:10:52
Spenno exactly no issue discussing them but our opinions are totally irrelevant to those that make decisions. But you seem to have an issue with me saying that.
Let's face it you know just about as much on doing open heart surgery or directing a movie as you do about running a football team.
It's fun to discuss but I wouldn't pay any attention to a bunch of folk talking about solutions to a problem they have no idea how to fix.
I asked yesterday what we think the new Co owner will do not what you want to happen. Because its really the only thing that matters.
27 Feb 2024 15:58:02
I read that the new minority shareholder made some comments about errors, basically errors happen but keep making the same error or making it more than once is unacceptable. Has ETH repeated errors? Has he continued with tactics that leave us wide open? Has he played Rashford, Antony beyond reason when it was clearly an error? If buying Antony was an error, does the new minority shareholder see Onana, Mount as errors?
Dracred commented about Klopp and his first two years. Could Liverpool fans see what he was trying to do? Was the future pattern clear? It’s a key question, because when I see United passing the ball slowly around aimlessly at the back with Onana slowing it down, our style not defined, press, drop uncoordinated after 2 years, I wonder what our future is, a pattern just isn’t clear and it should be. ETH should sell the vision, Liverpool knew what Klopp would do, we haven’t a clue where we are going.
We are allowed to debate the future of ETH, personally I think he is toast now. That was a watershed at the weekend and Champions League football is now going to be tough. Spending £1.2Bn putting top end directors in says the aim is high. Is ETH that high end manager? I don’t think he is and to start a new era I strongly suspect there will be a change. ETH may be here until summer but I expect discussions on his successor have already taken place.
The who will be interesting, it needs some tough action but a lot should fall on the DOF. I would still look at Simeone because he will not stand for nonsense. I like De Zerbi and heard many positives about Amorim. Ultimately it’s time we had a head coach not an all powerful manager, with a defined style of football that if isn’t delivered results in a change without the acrimony and demand for every manager to be given 5 years, when it isn’t clear they can deliver.
The new minority shareholder will do things differently and that is very likely to be good news.
27 Feb 2024 16:12:20
Our new co owner and major shareholder sjr and his team will decide the fate of eth.
Nobody on here knows, we are all entitled to air our views. None of our views will be relevant to their decision.
Eth is not the major problem but that's not to say he can deliver even if the problems around him are solved.
Ajh said they did due diligence on him but let's face it due diligence and an extensive interview process is no good if the decision makers are not subject matter experts. I think we all agree that our previous management are not subject matter experts.
27 Feb 2024 17:14:50
Understand that tumble, I just don't like the pile on that is happening. We lost a game after winning 4. Newcastle and chelsea are performing worse, yet they get a free pass. Where is all the media attention on them? This in turn makes this page light up with ten hag out debates. I enjoy the debate of it, and totally agree about club experts deciding. One of my concerns is that those club experts are not in place yet. So I partly want to wait until they are. Fully in board with top down alignment of the full club, it is the only way will get back to where we need to.
27 Feb 2024 17:19:12
Our views may or may not make any difference to the minority shareholder but it’s a banter and discussion website, that’s its purpose so no one should feel they can’t have an opinion.
Due diligence on ETH was done by the previous failed regime, so is unlikely to be as thorough as it should have been.
The minority shareholder is looking to make changes, I suspect he will want a manager that plays football in a style he expects. Slow Dutch possession doesn’t seem likely to be it so unless there is a meeting of minds on that, ETH is likely to be in trouble.
27 Feb 2024 17:52:24
Db your view laid out above is that anybody that wants a change of manager is toxic.
I hope you don't think that about our new co owner and major shareholder and ceo and dof if they think that's the way forward.
But you won't you'll change your tune and back pedal just as you did when ole was fired.
If its a case of them wanting to keep eth I will have to do the same. I've no issue with that I've been wrong before just like your good self.
27 Feb 2024 18:42:31
No tumble, but our new leadership team is not in place, so who is making that decision?
I backed Ole far longer than everyone on here. I have not backtracked on that. I backed him, because I knew that if ut failed with him it meant that we were entering into a complete squad rebuild and that this would take years.
For some reason others don't seem to have come to terms with that, and think we should be a solid top 4 team even when we need to rip the guts out of it.
As everyone keeps saying. We will see what comes.
27 Feb 2024 19:13:48
The new team. Will make the decision DB when the time is right.
If you regard them as toxic if they make the decision to remove him then its going to be a long hard few years for you???.