07 Mar 2018 08:28:11
There is a train of thought on here that goes a little something like this "we need full backs to attack and stretch teams, and until we have them we won't see the best of United" or something to that effect.
Now for a long time I also prescribed to that idea. Then yesterday I had an epiphany.
For most of this season our full backs have been Valencia and Young, two former wingers who's first instinct is to attack the opposition full backs and create something for a teammate.
I agree they might not have been the greatest wingers to grace the United shirt, but wingers all the same.
Jose is considered a defensive coach, and you won't find me disputing that. The fact remains though that he could have picked Darmian or even Lindelof at RB or Blind or Rojo at LB. Any of them would be considered a more defensive option to Valencia or Young.
Even Shaw in theory should be a better defender than Young.
Yet on paper Jose has chosen our most offensive options at full back. Players who have always been attack first defend second players.
So why are our most often full backs not playing that offensively?
I would say it's for the same reason they are getting picked every week. It's because they are best at following Jose's instructions. Do as Jose says and your in the team. We saw that with Pogba/ McTominay recently where the far superior player was dropped for someone who just did what Jose wanted.
So will buying new full backs change anything? If our full backs are not being adventurous because Jose doesn't want them to be, then why would that change if we buy new ones?
That's not to say I don't believe we should be buying new full backs, clearly our are lacking and they aren't getting any younger.
I just don't see Jose suddenly changing style because he has bought offensive full backs, as he has been playing our most offensive options at full back all season.
Maybe we need to stop with this idea that suddenly Jose will start playing a different brand of football to that he has his entire career just because we have bought a few new players. The new players we sign will make us better at playing Jose's style, not what we would consider United's style.
07 Mar 2018 10:01:48
Valencia can run up an down as much as he wants but he can't cross a ball.
Young is only playing because Shaw is not trusted or maybe Shaw will play a lot more next year but if Jose has his way he will get rid of Shaw as well.
If Jose gets a Ghoulam type of player who can both defend and attack at th3 same time then you will see a lot more from our full backs.
Id also say Valencia doesn't really have a technical brain to play cute passes and get mire involved in the games.
You will see a big difference when we get a decent rb and lb.
07 Mar 2018 10:19:17
Singh to be fair to valencia did set up smalling beautifully for the equalizer on Monday night.
07 Mar 2018 10:49:05
Valencia set smalling up with the cross.
People will be saying when young come off Shaw changed the game next;)
07 Mar 2018 10:50:33
Singh, the argument is our attacking players can’t perform because there is no width, and by extension if we had full backs who get forward more often than they would stretch play for our forwards to find space between the lines.
Yet we play with two wingers at full back, both naturally want to get forward. Yet even when they do we still struggle to stretch teams.
Maybe it's the tactics of the manager or maybe we for some reason are unable to play at a quick enough tempo to open up spaces to exploit.
I think if we buy better players we are likely to get better results. However, I don’t think any number of signings will suddenly change how we play. That comes from the manager, and Jose hasn’t changed how he’s set up in over 15 years and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
I’m not saying it's time to sack Jose, just that United fans won’t see the style of football they are after until after he’s gone.
I said before we hired Jose that in my opinion he wasn’t quite the right fit for us. I appreciate what he has won and think he is an excellent manager. But he is a defensive manager and we are a cavalier style club. I was shouted down that Jose would change his spots as United was his dream job and he would adopt the mantra of the club. Well that never happened. Now people are saying Jose will change when we sign enough of “his†players. Well we have signed 8 so far, and he still hasn’t changed his style.
In January we swapped Mkhitaryan for Sanchez, but based on current performances you couldn’t tell. I think Sanchez is a great player, better than Mkhitaryan. Yet when he plays in a Mourinho team his performances are pretty similar.
I would say that is because the team doesn’t lack talent, they are just playing the way Jose WANTS them to play.
That’s why I don’t expect to see a big difference no matter who we sign.
07 Mar 2018 11:38:08
Shaps
I agree with a lot of that and made a similar point during lvg time in charge.
Everyone wants to see United play a certain way but they seem to think the manager wants the same as them .
People were convinced lvg would play there style once he had bought x y and z.
As it turns out he continued to play a brand of footy he had for the last 10 year .
At the start of the season we where putting 4 on teams but it wasn't great to watch. What it was was the Jose way his Chelsea teams won epl playing like that .
It's a bit like fellaini not many want him or his style at the club . Jose seems to he a fan tho.
07 Mar 2018 11:49:30
I think u have a good point shappy, the better full backs who get forward and provide the width argument makes perfect sense but is that what will be asked of them . We have had similar discussions on here about how the team didn't trust the CBS so sets up defensive, then we sign a couple and not much change, then when we have a better holding player in midfield it will get more attacking as the team will be more protected, we sign matic who has done well but still no drastic change of approach. It's clear we do need fullbacks though and I agree with what people say about letting them give us more width aslong as that's what he intends to do with them .
07 Mar 2018 12:02:18
Jred, I think a lot of people's frustrations with United at the moment stem from them waiting for the club to play a style that just isn't going to happen under our current manager.
You see them on the chat during games complaining that the teams is still playing in the same way. Whereas, if they accepted that under Mourinho this is probably how we are going to play more often than not. Then they wouldn't feel disappointed and let down every time the team plays.
The club needs rebuilding, Tony posted yesterday about an old Facebook post from 2012 I think where he was unhappy with the team. He listed players such as Bebe ect.
I thought it highlighted just how poor the squad was even in Sir Alex's final years. In a time where our competitors have become much wealthier and have been able to bring in some world class players and with them world class managers it was always going to be an uphill battle.
I don't believe Jose will ever be loved by United supporters, he just rubs people up the wrong way and his style is a million miles away from what we have become accustomed too. But I concede he might be the right man to put the club back on track. Point us in the right direction, overhaul the squad then someone else will step in bring a new style sign one or two key players for that style to work and win big trophies playing attractive football.
We might be a few years away from that point, and it won't be a comfortable road to get there. But we need to get behind the club.
07 Mar 2018 12:30:02
1 good cross in 10 games doesn't point to be as a top class winger.
Valencia was never a top winger, his biggest attribute was pace and still is.
He was never good at crosses and i always see him boot the ball at 50 miles per hour.
I don't think Jose has his team yet and he has a big ego to do well at United and will do what ever it takes his team to topple City next year.
I also believe Jose will adapt more then Guardiola as he is less stubborn then him.
I could understand if you a play certain style of football and tactic but the very basic of not knowing how to cross a ball is completely different to following instructions.
We have around 7+ players over 6 foot in our team and to make full use of those you need people putting good crosses in otherwise his style of play would just not work here.
07 Mar 2018 12:35:06
When Mourinho was at Madrid he had Fabio coentrao, arbeloa, Ramos and Marcelo as his lbs and rbs those players are much better technically then all our rbs and lbs.
07 Mar 2018 13:18:17
Singh, I don't think the difference between how Jose's Real Madrid side played and how his United team play is down to the full backs.
He had one of the best forward lines in modern football along with Modric at his peak. His tactics were still very similar, sit tight and stay compact and let his best forward players try and make something happen. The difference is he had much much better forward players and a midfielder who could control the tempo of the game.
07 Mar 2018 13:50:32
A midfield and attack without good defenders won't win you the premier league in 2018 because of teams like Man City as they have the best players in every position just look at city for e. g. last year they had a very good attack n midfield but poor defenders.
I think Kyle walker, Sterling and ufcourse Ederson has made a huge huge difference to them it has allowed his midfield to be more confident moving forward.
When Jose was at Real Madrid he only really had Ronaldo as a worldclass attacker top the others such as Ozil, Di Maria, Jese Rodrigues And Benzema were pretty young and were still learning their trade and became very good throughout his time over at Madrid.
But you don't have Ronaldo in every team that is why he brought Sanchez which so far hasn't worked out because he is not a Ronaldo.
I agree with you in reference to us needing another midfielder, maybe someone like Savic or Jorginho who will run around like Kante but is also very technical and can play attacking football as well as defend like a lion.
If Guardiola didn't spend so much money on evry single player we would be crusing but he has spent it and we have to match it otherwise we won't win the League next year.
07 Mar 2018 13:54:21
I should also say that was la liga where only Madrid and Barcelona were challengers and this is the premier league where 6 teams can challenge for the league so that is 10 games from 38 which is a lot of games fo4 us to play at th3 very top level so we do need top class players otherwise we won't win a thing next year.
Then there is also the other teams such as Everton etc which won't roll over easily like teams in La Liga.
07 Mar 2018 14:53:05
Arbeol and contero where poor at Madrid and they did have a good forward line . Ronaldo scored 60 goals that season that more than United have scored in the league this season .
Slate good post that .
Shappy United are second in the league doing well really Jose doing what Jose does .
Problem is city are breaking records left right and centre, raised the bar and making everyone else look ordinary.
07 Mar 2018 16:32:06
Problem is there is only one Ronaldo. Since not evryone has a Ronaldo to carry the team you have to have the whole team performing well.
Like you said City been breaKing records with their players and we need to spend to get to that level otherwise you will not see United making that jump.
07 Mar 2018 16:55:29
Singh
Could we afford delph.
07 Mar 2018 17:19:03
We can afford one delph not 2 of them or atleast not the whole back line.
07 Mar 2018 17:30:37
Singh, I agree that we probably need to bring in a few more players to compete with City.
I'm not against signing players, I'm just stating that the style of play will not improve under Jose no matter how many players we sign.
This is Jose's style.
We need to accept that. We will sign more players and they should mean we get better results, but the performances will likely stay the same, the only difference is we probably won't concede as many shots.
07 Mar 2018 18:22:10
Madrid didn't bore anyone when he was there.
07 Mar 2018 18:30:17
I agree Shappy i am not saying Jose will suddenly change his style all i am saying is thr players are going to be a lot morr effective.
I also believe our attackers need to be a lot more clinical next year.
Players like Pogba, Sanchez, Rashford and Martial need to score a lot more goals next year.
07 Mar 2018 18:47:16
Ken, as stated above Real Madrid had some of the best players on the planet at the time, and in Ronaldo arguably one of the greatest ever.
I'm sure we would be slightly less boring if we had De Bruyne, Messi and Neynmar in our line up instead of Mata, Rashford and Sanchez.
07 Mar 2018 19:00:46
Its a team game Shappy players need to compliment each other. You think new full backs will make no difference i completely disagree.
Why was sterling crap behind sagna or sane behind kolorov. Sterling looks class behind walker.
Real had great players your right but they has very few average ones we have 4 or 5 average players every week.
07 Mar 2018 19:50:34
So sterling plays well because walker is there. Apart from when he plays with walker in a completely different set up . sane is playing well does that mean delph danilo zanicke are world class?
Who was the great full back who played behind Sanchez at arsenal?
Pogba Sanchez had a stinker and people still want to put it down to full backs.
Do people really think if we buy 2 new full backs Jose is going to have us playing like barce?
We may well buy a fullback or promote one next season but to suggest United can't play well with this current squad is ridiculous. How good do our full backs need to be to play well against Newcastle Bristol and co.
07 Mar 2018 20:43:42
Ken, Man City weren't crap last year. They played some excellent games. They were inconsistent though, probably in hindsight while they were getting to grips with Pep's style and methods. now they have fully grasped what he wants them to do and they are able to do it consistently they all look much better.
If you think Sterling is only playing well because Walker is behind him then your a fool. If that was the case then why doesn't he play as well for England as he does City? As in both teams he has Walker playing behind him.
I agree its a team game and its about finding the right balance within the team. I have coached football.
But if you think the style and tactic's we play will change because we bought a couple of new full backs then you will be very disappointed next season.
07 Mar 2018 20:46:33
Unbelievable.
Who said anything about world class?
To use one if your own double standards back at you now who us comparing sanchez with sterling?
Who said sanchez and pogba were good i'm pretty sure everybody said they were poor. Who said pogba olayed bad last night because our full backs were poor.
Who said new full backs would have us playing like Barcelona?
You throw out stupid remarks like that a lot mis representing and misinterpreting things people write. Just so you can have am argument. Your opinion is your opinion others have theirs. But your ranting there just arguing against points nobody has made with gross exaggeration.
07 Mar 2018 21:19:31
Shappy where did i say city were crap last year mate? really? Shappy where did i ever say our style would change with proper full backs. I said the team will play better and will be more productive. Cole was the best in the world under jose and zanetti at milan and marcelo at madtid so ehat style was jose playing there. I've coached too shappy and still do. Where did i say sterling is only good because of walker? but he was in crap form and gor sale until walker came and the reason its not the same for england is because they have much worse players all around them imo and pep has them playing to their strengths but he coudnt get them to play like that with zabaletta kolorov sagna nolito navas fernando magala etc etc etc.
He got yhe players to play his system best. Jose hsdnt got the players to play his system best. 2 full back will help our team no end. But we will see next season i hope. Why should jose get players playing a system they are not cut out for when pep cant.
Im no fool shappy don't be as bad as jred don't put words in my mouth and read properly before mis quoting please its not your usual style.
07 Mar 2018 21:24:05
I'm not ranting I'm laughing .
I agree with shappy ;)
07 Mar 2018 21:33:44
Ken should maybe stop ranting and look down the page.
07 Mar 2018 22:06:21
Ken, untwist your knickers it's just friendly discussion.
I wonder if you'll now say you never said your knickers are twisted. Lol.
07 Mar 2018 23:14:00
I don't wear knickers. well not on a Wednesday anywayðŸ‘ðŸ¼shappy I've seen you react when your misquoted or misinterpreted.
Do you think our team would be better if say coleman and rose / sandro were our full backs?
07 Mar 2018 23:34:21
Rose and Coleman would be amazing the team would play like Brazil 1970 .
Every signing we make us amazing.
When judging this team the reason we aren't playing great footy isn't because Sanchez and co are struggling (read the page ) it's just what chance have they got with our full backs.
What does it take to beat Newcastle?
Now there's a question like many others that won't get answered.
08 Mar 2018 00:11:27
Jred just like 004 4 the other day i'm getting bored with you.
You think its just that sanchez and co are struggling and i agree they are but imo one of the reasons they are is the lack of support and players offering themselves as an option, making overlap after over lap supporting runs and working their ass off for their team mates.
You and some don't see it that way but others do. let's see what happens and if new signings improve us or not.
And what it takes to beat newcastle or any team in the epl is hard work commiment and to score more than the oppisition.
08 Mar 2018 08:45:57
Lol an other question not answered .
It's not all about signing this isn't footy manager, modern fan tho just interested in fancy new shinny toys .
United should continue to improve for a variety of reasons.
08 Mar 2018 14:42:21
What question not answered?