Manchester United banter 78735

 

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20 Mar 2018 19:04:32
Just a different perspective on the luke shaw debate. These are quotes from his former coach and mentor at southamton madr today.

He does make you pull your hair out at times. You have to try different things to get the best out of him, ’ Dodd told BBC Sport. I
think they have tried everything and they have not got through to him to get him out on the pitch and perform.

‘Luke is one of those players where you have to keep on, you have to keep pushing him and he needs to be challenged.

‘He is a fantastic player, but if you have to question some of it – his drive, training everyday, and giving absolutely everything.

‘You are at Manchester United. Mourinho expects you to put it in every session and that is an area where Luke will struggle. ’

I would suggest that this guy nows him better than anybody.

It does put a diffetent perspective on it. Nobody here knows him but this guy does know him probably better than anybody.

Agree5 Disagree16

20 Mar 2018 19:27:09
Doesn’t put a different perspective on it for me, people who constantly moaned about Rooney being overweight after the summer are defending a player who can’t even stay fit during the season with training every day and more than likely a dietician. Mourinho is the 3rd manager to question him, there is only one person to blame here.

20 Mar 2018 19:30:40
I don’t disagree ken, the challenge is whether anyone is prepared to invest the time needed. Young has come out today and said he could be the best left back in the world but whether he is looking to defend him or motivate him I don’t know. The kid is talented but he appears to have an application issue. Maybe he’s a bit thick because of you have that talent why would you waste it (Morrison springs to mind) . For me, if the talent is there, it is up to a club (hopefully ours) to get it out of him.

20 Mar 2018 19:36:32
It's quite well known that Shaw can be a poor trainer, and how much Mourinho puts into training.

However, Mourinho has on four or five occasions tried this public humiliation of Shaw to try and get a reaction. If it didn't work first time then why keep doing it?

Mourinho also has a habit of ostracising one player he feels is surplus to requirements in attempt to keep others in line and scare players into not challenging him or his methods.

In any other walk of life if a person in a position of power repeatedly kept ostracising a person for whom they are responsible for in front of co-workers or in front of the worlds media it would be considered bullying.

He is attempting to emotionally blackmail a co-worker into doing something his way.

I don't buy your line about Mourinho has no choice as he is contractually obliged to answer questions. He has autonomy to answer those questions as he sees fit, rather than downbeat one player he could choose to elevate another. He could say Young's form is such that he doesn't deserve to be dropped. He could point out the things Young is doing well and why he is selecting him ahead of others. Or just simply say it was a tactical decision.

We know Shaw has struggled with training, many people have pointed this out, just because he struggles with motivation or understanding of his situation that doesn't mean he deserves to be hung out to dry over and over and over again. Mourinho could keep it in house. If Shaw isn't the right kind of player for him then thank him for his efforts and let him move on in the summer.

I'm not surprised about the timing of this whole Shaw situation, the press and worlds media start to question Mourinho and his ability. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the squad started to question it also, especially when you consider Pogba's recent treatment, he is a very popular and influential player in the dressing room.
Mourinho's modus operandi to deal with whispers that the players might be question him is to scare them into not challenging him by showing those players what happens if you cross him.

Shaw is his scapegoat this time.

20 Mar 2018 20:12:33
I disagree shappy I think you are making way more of it than it actually is. At times perhaps Jose has been tougher on shaw but that’s because the lad has immense talent but can’t even stay fit during a season. We do not know what goes on behind the scenes and but I would be pretty confident that Jose has tried everything from putting an arm around him to giving him a kick up the arse. When does enough become enough? This smacks to me as frustration and a final roll of the dice for Jose on trying to provoke a reaction from shaw. And if shaw doesn’t like it then it’s bye bye for me because I’m sick of talking about potential and chances with him. He had a terrible injury but other plays such as Coleman has managed to come back so clearly he does not have the mental strength or drive to make it here.

I’m not supporting or condoning when Jose publicly criticises players because I feel it should usually be dealt with in house. But I am sick of the majority of these players and their attitude. We are on our third manager in 5 years and the common denominator in the failings have been the players. Yes the appointments have been poor and I’m not totally convinced by Jose, but there is a lack of professionalism and winning mentality in this squad. Whether you like Jose or not, or agree with his methods, he is a winner. He has high standards and shaw and other players are not matching those. If that is the case then get rid because we need that ruthlessness back. Sir alex had total respect and fear and maybe it’s going to take for Jose to ruffle a few of these pre madonna’s Feathers to get us challenging again.

Finally, people bring up Rooney being over weight or unfit. I find it ludicrous to compare him with shaw. One player was one of the passionate and hard working players we have had in a while and the other is not. Rooney for all his faults always worked hard, played with passion and wanted to win. Although shaw has played well when he has been given an opportunity, he doesn’t even show an ounce of commitment that Rooney did for us. 3 managers have said these comments about shaw and I think it is time to accept that it is best he moves in for both parties. Yes we may regret it if he turns it on for spurs or whoever. But there is no way in hell he's going to make it here and I am quite frankly sick and tired of discussing his potential when he doesn’t have the professionalism to even keep fit.

20 Mar 2018 20:34:07
Sorry Park just read your post completely agree pal.

20 Mar 2018 20:32:18
Good post GDS2.

I'm sorry to have to break this to you all but Luke Shaw has been rubbish for Utd.

A complete waste of money.

Poorly scouted and thrust into the lime light at one of the biggest Clubs in the world after only playing 12 months of professional football.

He's must be taking home over £100k a week I don't feel sorry for him one bit.

This bullying rubbish is nonsense and before you all jump all over me it does make a massive difference how much he earns. The blokes made for life, he's being paid millions by the club and when he gets a chance he can't even be bothered to run up and down the line and close people down. He's mugging us all off.

What has Jose done that's so terrible? Took him off at HT for a lack lustre performance when he should be busting a gut to get his place back? Come out after the game and told some home truths? Not picked him because others have been performing better? You've all gone soft.

Go and watch Shaw play, the bloke hides, he doesn't want the ball, he stands in position's where he's marked.

Seen as though he's got the whole world feeling sorry for him he should go and play for a Club where there is no expectation, where he can eat, drink and train how he likes. A Club where he can drive his Bentley into training and no one questions his commitment, desire or professionalism, a Club where he can enjoy all the trappings of being a professional footballer but without ever needing to be professional or accountable for his own performance.

This is Man Utd we're taking about for gods sake.

Luke Shaw make a decision about if you want to be an elite sportsman and stop wasting everyone's time. Do you think Ronaldo and Messi got to where they are today without putting the hard work in on the training ground, without making sacrifices, without having strength of personality. Man up!

Sorry for the rant Shappy I always enjoy reading your posts but I just can't agree on this one.

20 Mar 2018 20:43:00
Park, I agree that Shaw is running very low on chances if he hasn't run out already.
I don't think he will make it to be honest, he does seem to lack that mental toughness you need to turn phenomenal talent into a phenomenal career.
In many ways that clear lack of mental toughness just makes it worse in publicly humiliating him. It's clear if a player lacks that strength of character then any act to bring him under close public scrutiny is only going to exasperate the problems.
He hasn't got the mental fortitude to make it, fine, let him move on and so be it. Constant humiliation isn't in anyone's interest. It's harmful to his well-being, it's shameful for the club, it will lower any potential transfer fee we would receive and I suspect it'll make players think twice about joining the club.
The only person is benefits is Jose as we are no longer questioning the poor performance he presided over in our elimination from the UCL. I also suspect the players will think twice about disagreeing with Jose for a while to.

I know Jose has a winners mentality, and he demands it from his players, and clearly our players need to regain that state of mind. But my moral compass is unhappy with the way Jose is running our club. Should we sell our soul for a nice silver trophy? For me winning is hollow unless we do it our way. I'm not sure this is it.

20 Mar 2018 20:55:28
Five managers have all said the same about Shaw . This is nothing new it is a damn shame the guy was doing everything right even linking well with Depay and then he breaks his leg . It's a case of what could of been -SORRY 😆😆.

20 Mar 2018 20:55:39
That's fine Danny, you don't have to agree, in fact I would find it unnerving if everyone agreed with me all the time.

You proscribe to the Tory view that how you should be treated depends on how much money you have.

I don't, I think people should be treated the same regardless of how much money they earn. People are quick enough to jump on a celebrities back for getting special treatment and feel they should be treated the same as the rest of us, then feel that they should be held up to a higher level of scrutiny because they earn more money. Therefore, not treating them the same as the rest of us.

I don't think we can have it both ways.

Clearly Shaw has commitment issues, clearly he doesn't train hard enough. That's fine, it's his life and he can choose to make the most of his talent or throw it away.

The club doesn't have to employ him and if they feel they aren't getting value for money then sell the lad and cut your losses.

Don't publicly shame him, don't try to emotionally blackmail a performance out of him and don't bully him. While we are here debating the technicality of what constitutes "bullying" and whether it's acceptable the name of our club is being dragged through the gutter in the world's press. But that's okay because Shaw earns a lot of money.

20 Mar 2018 21:04:47
Good post Danny agree with that and good point on shaw getting too much too early. We were fools to pay a teenager £100,000 a week to a kid whose was 18 years old. It’s time for him to grow up quite frankly.

That is a good point actually shappy in terms of shaw clearly not having the mental strength to deal with criticism. I agree some people cannot take criticism as well as others so I appreciate that we do not know how shaw is taking it. I think the club should have cut their losses last summer instead of keeping him when it was clear Jose didn’t want him. It smacks of the board wanting to keep him and hoping he turned good whilst Jose clearly not wanting him.

I’m with you shappy about being unhappy morally at how Jose is there running our club. It is not pretty and I do feel we have sold our soul a little. However, having had time to think and assess the options out there and where we are currently in our rebuilding, it would be naive to sack Jose without giving him the summer and another year to try and get it right. At least when or if he goes in the summer the squad will be more balanced with hopefully some full backs and more of the deadwood stripped from the squad. It’s not pretty but if Jose can get these players to put in some hard graft and man up I will be happier. I agree jose’s Tactics are crap at times but it’s down to the players when it comes to application, hard work and passion on the pitch. Too many players for me are hiding and frankly don’t give a rats arse. These players are being found out and it’s time for Jose to identify and move them on. They are far too comfortable on their lucrative contracts and it’s biting us in the arse with how we have mishandled giving such big contracts out.

20 Mar 2018 21:08:35
If I was selling my car this summer I wouldn't be making a point to any buyers how much I just don't want to keep it. Why not just say nothing and sell Shaw for best possible price if he duznt want him . How on earth does people thinking the manager bullies a young player and possible buyers thinking he has no future at utd help the price.

20 Mar 2018 21:23:14
I get that Park, we can't keep chopping and changing the manager. However, that shouldn't come into the equation when deciding whether to continue with Mourinho or not. you can't keep the wrong man in the job just because you've changed managers a few times recently.

I would also question whether it's a good idea to let Mourinho spend another fortune unless you planned to keep him at least in the medium term. The owners were apparently reluctant to let Sir Alex spend big in his final few seasons as they knew he would be leaving soon and any players he bought might not fit in with the new regime.

Isn't that half the problem with Shaw? He was bought for a large fee by a manager who is no longer at the club and the new manager doesn't rate him.

Also have all of Mourinho's signings been that good?

Mkhitaryan is no longer at the club. Lindelof has been hit and miss. Zlatan was decent for a season but hardly set the world alight while also restricting young players at the club. Sanchez is yet to have a good game for the club. Pogba splits opinion whether he has performed well or not. That leaves Bailly, Matic and Lukaku who could be considered successes. 3 out of 8 is not a great batting rate. If your generous and say Pogba has been good then its a 50% success rate.

Do you still want to trust the man who might not see out next season with 100m+.

20 Mar 2018 21:41:36
That is a good point Shaps. I’m fully behind the idea of getting a jardim or Tuchel in as I do not think Jose will get us to winning the title or playing attacking football. But the way I look at it is that Jose is not getting the most out of our attacking players, as opposed to the signings being poor or he squad not being good enough. I think Jose has not resolved the pogba and Sanchez conundrum of how to fit them in the team. I like lindelof he is very cultured and able on the ball and needs a run of games. Like you said matic bailly and Lukaku have been a success.

All those players you have mentioned are players who I would consider key first team players. I cannot see any of them getting moved on or not playing an important part under a new manager. What I am getting at is that I think Jose has bought well and much better than his predecessors, but is not getting anywhere near enough creativity and quality out of them. So if Jose was to be given money to spend this summer I would trust him to bring in full backs that were good enough and the midfielders we need. Ok maybe we still won’t play decent football but if he were to leave at the end of next season then the next manager has a much stronger platform and squad to work off. Rather than to come now where we are in a much more shaky position and changing manager would be a disruption.

It’s a very chicken and egg scenario and I know it sounds odd but perhaps it is better to give Jose the money as I think he has bought well and let him finish his rebuild. His issue has not been quality of signings for me it’s been that he has not been able to integrate them successfully into a cohesive team. Whoever takes over will have a very good team imo and it will be his job to get this players playing the style of football we demand. I’m not advocating we keep Jose for years but just allow him to see out his 3 year deal.

20 Mar 2018 21:48:28
We'll have to call this one a day Shappy.

I just fail to see how Jose has humiliated or publicly shamed him or brought the Club into disrepute as your suggesting?

Maybe I'm missing something but were his words so bad? So cruel? Can a manger not now criticise a players performance, commitment or professionalism?

What I will concede is that if Shaw is mentally fragile than Jose words will do little to enhance his performance or confidence.

Your normally bang on the money so maybe I should give it more thought and check my moral compass.

20 Mar 2018 22:02:38
If he's planning on selling Shaw in the summer, he's got a funny way of going about getting best price. I'd be bigging the lad up, playing him as much as possible, to hopefully get a fair market price for him. Slagging him off in public like this, is going to put off would-be suitors, or only attract low prices because it's clear José doesn't want him.

20 Mar 2018 22:17:18
Can't get my head round that either nou, why would u talk down the price of yr own asset, jm duznt have to rate him if he duznt sell him but surely talk him up not down, we could end up with a reduced price and a manager perceived as a bully of young players it even causes debate on the man utd page . Absolute no win he has to go and any buyers pretty know it.

21 Mar 2018 01:47:05
Lots of interesting debate on the Luke Shaw comments. Tony V didn't get away free from criticism in the very same interview yet that hardly got a mention in the media let alone the big fuss the LS comments have attracted, and Tony is our team captain!

I thought LS looked like he had taken previous criticism on board and was starting to mature a bit when he had a run of games a couple of months ago, but seems he has regressed again. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors but perhaps Jose is trying the same tactics again (he has form for using the same tactics! ), perhaps he's sending a message to the rest of the squad, or perhaps he's simply run out of patience with the lad.

My personal view is that the public nature of the criticism is a little odd, but the comments have been magnified by the media more than necessary.

The bullying debate is interesting and I see both sides. It can't be nice for the Shaw family to read and I feel for them mostly, but it comes with the territory and criticism can comes from current/ former/ rival managers/ players, pundits, fans, etc. I'd happily take a few public bashings from Jose for ~£100k a week without having to put in too much effort to earn it. In fact, I'd even write the scripts for the bashings myself!

Lastly, I don't get the thought process of some that says give LS game time to hike his sale price. We are Manchester United, if he's not good enough or committed enough to be at the club then he shouldn't be wearing the shirt ahead of someone who is; appearing for United is a privilege that should not be devalued. I'm not the biggest fan of Ashley Young at left-back, but he's been better than LS this season, and it would be criminal for him to be denied the chance to cement a place in the England World Cup squad to put LS in the shop-window.

{Ed0333's Note - that made good reading

21 Mar 2018 01:56:42
Its not the managers job to maximise price stevie nothing to do with him as per ed002.

21 Mar 2018 07:15:24
The truth is what we as fans think probably means very little, it seems to split opinion tho .
It's not a one if incident, I Still think Jose comments a few months ago about him having to be Shaw brain and make all his decision were worse .
The lad had just played well but Jose seemed to want to make a point it was all down to him . I'm still not sure what he was trying to achieve there .
I find his treatment of Shaw a bit odd to be honest.
The main question is does it or has it upset the dressing room or even the board and there has been a lot of reports it has .

Someone I think it was anglered posted the other day that j ducker was worth following, and he has wrote an article suggesting that senior players etc find the treatment of Shaw vindictive.
At the least it what everyone is talking about and paints nobody in a good light imo which raises the question would it not of been better to keep things a bit more in house .

{Ed001's Note - it's mixed, Ducker is generalising about individuals and so is not giving a full picture. Some, such as Matic, worship Mourinho and will not listen to any suggestion he has got anything wrong. Others hate him and so hate everything he does. The vast majority are spread between the two to varying degrees.}

21 Mar 2018 08:30:36
Ed
Sounds like Jose splits opinion, obviously these things are not just down to the manager other people will be involved and have a view .
Is Jose been fully backed by the club in regards the treatment of Shaw.

{Ed001's Note - everyone splits opinion, you can please some of the people all of the time etc. The problem Jose has is that a large proportion of people at United never wanted him and he is now turning some others against him with his treatment of Shaw, especially those at the business end of the club who see his value in the market dropping significantly. His backing is decreasing outside of Woodward, who hangs on his every word, according to what one member of staff told me.}

21 Mar 2018 09:59:25
Ken, it's not. But as per Ed001, I don't think the money men will be too happy.

{Ed001's Note - it is not his job to maximise value, but it is also not his job to completely devalue assets and then complain when he is not being given hugely expensive players to replace the ones he himself has devalued.}

21 Mar 2018 11:02:54
It happend i don't see an issue with any of it. i'm 100% certain if shaw was my son i'd be telling him to shut his trap consider himself lucky and to listen to a manager that knows more than him. i'd advise him to make a public statement that he takes on board the managers comments and that he will try to improve and regain the managers trust. Then there is no story and people won't be talking about him.

21 Mar 2018 12:24:06
Problem is Ken, nowadays its not the players father that has the say like it used to be, its agents thinking more about there pockets than what is in reality best for the player.

21 Mar 2018 13:19:33
True fzz sadly.







 

 

 
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