Manchester United banter 79222

 

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16 May 2018 13:31:33
Mumbles, let me start by thanking you for writing an interesting and thought-provoking post in such an eloquent way. I enjoyed reading it. I was sadly far too busy yesterday to reply in a manner worthy of your post.

I'll start off with the biggest issue I have with your post. Football and romance are so entwined that they cannot and must not be separated.
Indulge me for one second and ask yourself why you watch football? Why you watch United? What memories come to mind?
I bet all of them are romantic either beautiful moments in our history or moments that brought a tear to your eye.

I watch football for the love of it, how does that have nothing to do with romance?

We want United to improve to bring back moments like Giggs's FA cup goal against Arsenal, like winning the UCL in the last moment against Bayern, like trashing Arsenal 8-2 or Roma 7-1. Rooney's overhead goal against City, or when we beat the Scousers.

If you take the love, passion and romance away from every fan then football loses all its worth.

If tradition and ethos mean nothing then let's rename Sir Matt Busby Way with a brand and receive some money, let's rename the stadium, let's rename the stands, let's stop remembering the flowers of Manchester, let's close the club museum and let us be rid of the academy.

For me there is no point in winning anything unless we win it the United way. Why support United if you don't support the very fabric which makes the club what it is?

Forget who did what I'll give you a choice of two scenarios and let's see honestly which one you would prefer.

Scenario 1, your team plays poor, boring football all season, you finish 2nd 19 points behind the winners having never challenged for the title. However, you have a FA cup final to look forward to.

Or

Scenario 2, your teams plays some fantastic fast free flowing football blowing many teams away. Real edge of your seat stuff, however, they are a poor in defence and concede a few silly goals meaning you finish 4th having never really challenged for the title. However, your offensive style has allowed you to blow everyone away in Europe and you have a UCL final to look forward to.

Forget who had which season can you honestly say you would prefer scenario 1?

At the end of the day one team out of 20 wins the league, the other 19 have only their teams performances to satisfy them.

Are you satisfied?

As for next season, I don't see many of our young players being given a chance. McTominay was only played by Jose to prove a point to Pogba. Let's wait and see how many games he starts next season, or if he even gets a cup final place. Shaw and Martial are likely to be gone next season. We are trying to tie Fellaini down to a new deal and are looking at signing at least one maybe two players who play in McTominay's position. Pereira, TFM, Mitchell and Tuanzebe are all likely to be loaned out or sold except for TFM who might get a role as third choice RB behind the 33-year-old Valencia and the 34-year-old Young. So, I don't see the youth being given a chance. Even when we have some excellent young players at the moment.

When we consider style, I find it completely bazar when people say we need to get the results before the performances. Since when did anyone play poorly to get the result?

You work on performances and as you improve your performances your results should improve. If your aim is to win the title and you do so playing poorly then what motivation is there to improve those performances?

Pep spent a whole season try to teach his players to play a certain way, over time they improved their performance and now they are smashing records.

Jose has now spent two years chasing results and we are still 19 points behind the league winners.

As for the some of the less favourable actions of Sir Alex, no one can really defend them. However, he did buy into the values of the club, he did give youth a chance, he did try and play in the right way, and more often than not he got it right. He also smiled and enjoyed being here.

Jose has been a great manager, but he just isn't the right fit for our club in my opinion. Others disagree and that's fine. Only time will tell how Jose will be remembered.


As for who should replace him, I'm not sure. There are good candidates out there, its about finding the right fit for the club. Which you aren't really going to know without meeting them.

Agree12 Disagree7

16 May 2018 14:08:26
Good post a happy.

16 May 2018 14:13:11
Good stuff shappy. Top post and sums up my feelings perfectly. But I still don't want jose out, not until we have a well thought out replacement, and if that takes a year or 2 so be it.

I remember that roma game, was my first trip to old Trafford. Not one I'm likely to forget either. Had to pay £130 quid for my ticket off a tout and only got in 2 mins before kick off. Was sat about 15 yards alway from the roma supporters and the atmosphere was electric, although quietened down after that first 20 minutes. That's the kind of memories I have. That game, beckhams half way line goal and the champions league final comeback are exactly what football is about.

16 May 2018 14:28:31
A good read and well thought out reply to Mumbles, Shappy. However, its all about perspective and how you look at things.

I started watching United in 2000-01 season and have been following them ever since. I have been what some people call the The Spoiled Ones who have only ever witnessed the football played under SAF where we were winning evertyhing and as you say blowing teams away. However, i will also add that i have read a lot of the history of United including how SAF had his team play for the first 5 years of his tenure. Correct me if i am wrong here but wasnt SAF almost sacked for the results and was only saved by an FA cup victory? My point here is that if the greatest of all time SAF took almost half a decade to get his team, to play his way, the United way, why is it so difficult to fathom that Jose might do the same in due course? Why can't we watch patiently on how this part of our history pans out? Sacking him now, wouldn't that do more harm than good.

You might remember that getting Jose through the doors was in some part our own doing. Remember what Ed002 said, its because of the TOXICS that the plan to let LVG complete his tenure and transition to Allegri was shelved? We did this damage (if you want to see it that way) and we would be going the same path again if we sack Jose now.

For what its worth, he has a team full of underachievers (some of which he bought) that have just finished the season only behind arguably the best team in PL history. I agree that the football that was played was painful for 60% of the games but we did have those 40% where we showed what we are actually capable of. You would also remember that Pogba started the season well but was first sent off and then got injured because of which he lost his momentum and so did the team. We all knew what we were getting when we hired Jose, how his teams play, how he sets up and how he handles the media and himself. Its really easy to point out his fallings if you don’t like him but he has also done some good stuff that won't be showed or talked about. If it were me in his position, I would be frustrated on how only negatives are highlighted and I would be doing the same thing that he is i.e fight the media and gloat about my positives. Now, that may not be the right thing to do but that’s the character of the man. He has his ego that is bigger than probably Mt. Everest but we can't question it because he has a CV that gives him the right to do it.

Now, you have given us scenarios of Liverpool and United for comparison- First off what if Liverpool don’t win the final, what do they show off? Will their fans be happy and content or will it be again “Next year would be our year”? They would have not won anything for all the fancy football and would have still finished a good 25 odd points behind the great City team.

As for us, we have a very good chance that we would be lifting the FA cup this weekend but again we might not win the FA cup and that would put a damper on our season for sure but we would still be above the most entertaining football teams in all of Europe.

Jose’s Inter team was probably the most boring team that I have watched but they did beat the great Barcelona and won the UCL that season along with the Serie A, didn’t they? Would any Inter fan come and tell me that they would prefer a free flowing game rather than the trophy. The answer would be NO.

I have said this before and I will repeat myself that trophies and entertainment are not mutually exclusive and can be and ideally should go hand in hand like City did but they did it with a complete team with perfect pieces falling into place. Are we on the same level for our team? Do we have a complete defense? Do we have proper wingers? Square pegs in round holes isn’t that we say?

Jose’s Chelsea played some wonderful football when they started winning things and so did his Real Madrid so for all we know he is capable of playing the way we all want to but we need to give him his tenure/ time to get his team together and if we are still here next season same time discussing the same things then he should be shown the door absolutely and nobody would question it.

As of now, I don’t think is the right time to sack him and he should be backed in the transfer market to the hilt even if he wants a 40 year old player that he thinks can fit his bill.

16 May 2018 14:35:54
Great post shappy absolutely agree with everything.

16 May 2018 14:55:45
UA so let me get this straight, you want jose to buy whatever he needs to win now and that includes a 40 year old and give example of inter, who by the way have won feck all since he left given all the oldies he bought and inter were stuck with once mourinho got his trophies. Would inter fans be happier if they didn't win the treble but then didn't dive into mediocrity?

You also say he needs to implement his own style and it is wonderful, it isn't by the way it never was. Except his madrid team which was more down to who he had and how that team functions rather than mourinho. But then also say that mourinho has a style and it isn't pretty but we all knew about it. So which is it? you can't have the cake and eat it too my friend.

You say he has a lot of under achieving players, he has spent 300mn and right now none of his signing can be called a unqualified success like pep can call with jesus or ederson or klopp with salah. Should we really be trusting him with more money.

Liverpool are going to finish below us this season yes, but if you look just at the league, 5 years down the line who would remember this season more fondly us or liverpool? neither won the league but atleast they played marvelous football and that is after selling their best player midfielder. Ours was at times bordering on LVG level football.

16 May 2018 15:34:05
Good persuasive argument Shappy although I didn't think the scenario's were fair. I'd love Utd to be in the final of the Champions League it's the absolute pinnacle of the game and I'd watch pragmatic stuff all day long if it guaranteed us a place in the final.

Maybe a more appropriate comparison would be that of Spurs. They have a young hungry coach, they play high intensity, attacking football but haven't really achieved anything other than a top 4 finish. Would you swap our season with theirs?

16 May 2018 15:44:15
OK CSM, so you don't agree with me. Fair enough. Who would you want to take over the helm at OT given that Jose is sacked today. And please be realistic and don't say Pep which won't happen. And also please guarantee me that we won't finish 7th next season with the new coach but absolute champagne football.

16 May 2018 15:50:13
On his signings- Lukaku, Matic, Zlatan (last season), Bailly are all successes. If you don't see it then nobody can help you. You need to take off that Pep poster from your bedroom and put on some United posters to see our team.

Ederson is a success but yes to cover up you won't say that Claudio Bravo was a failure because that would make Pep look bad. We would talk about Sane but we won't mention Nolito. We would mention Bernardo Silva but we won't mention Zinchenko. Because Pep saint would look bad. Pep has bought an entire new team while you are crying out for 300M? How much did he spend on the new back 5?

16 May 2018 16:00:57
Jardim would be my first choice actually won a trophy especially when competing with PSG and has shown that he can give kids a chance and play attacking football. The problem with mourinho is he right now gives me the cappello vibe great manager great history blah blah blah but football has evolved mourinho hasn't, something everyone wanting to compare fergie with mourinho forgets, it wasn't his tactical genius or his rigid adherence to a philosophy that made fergie last long and not end up like Wenger it was his ability to adapt mourinho doesn't have it.

There is no guarantee that Jardim succeeds but then what is the guarantee mourinho doesn't have his usual 3rd season meltdown as the list of players thrown under the bus gets too much and players revolt like they did at Chelsea his last job or madrid those before that.

16 May 2018 16:12:08
Sorry CSM I'm not having that! Would Inter fans be happier if they didn't win the treble? Is this honestly a serious question?

A feat achieved by only a few select Clubs in the history of the game!

What evidence do you have that Mourinho left them with a squad full of geriatrics, a squad good enough to win the treble by the way.

Do you know exactly who he signed or the make up of their squad?

Some misconceptions of Mourinho really need to stop unless they can be backed up by hard facts and evidence.

The fact they've won nothing since only illustrates the pedigree of the man and the magnitude of their achievement.

Just for your info the main players he signed when at Inter were Lucio 31, Diego Malito 30, Samuel Eto 28, Mancini 28, Thiago Motta 27, Wesley Snijder 24, Ricardo Quaresma 24, Sulley Muntari 24 I think they were a couple more but a decent group of players and hardly ready for the nursing home pal.

16 May 2018 16:14:13
Agree with that Shappy. I just wanted to add to those who moan about players not showing passion and joy in their play, that these things also come with style. Playing with style and knocking 4/ 5 goals past the opposing team breeds confidence, it breeds enjoyment and you can see this confidence and enjoyment in all great teams. I actually believe we were playing that way until Pogba got injured and we went into the Liverpool game with 10 men in front of goal.

It's also interesting to look at the results when Pogba came back 4-1 thrashing of Newcastle, 4-2 against Watford and the 3-1 beating of Arsenal at the Emirates. However sent off, suspended against City, lost to City and then it was just shutting up shop and hoping to score a goal or two in every match; nothing entertaining, bar the second half against City, since.

My point being that when the players have had confidence or licence to roam, the football wasn't that bad, and the results created a sense of anticipation of the next match in which that confidence took be transferred. When the tactics have been to stick to positions, to play it safe, that confidence was lost.

16 May 2018 16:20:21
Ludwig
We played some good stuff at the start of the season .
City kept the pressure on tho and mourhino reverted to type.

16 May 2018 16:21:38
DLIB, I chose the comparison with Liverpool as both teams haven't competed for the title and both have made it to a cup final.

If we lose the cup final and end the season trophyless would you then swap Spurs season for ours?

16 May 2018 16:44:51
DLIB before mourinho arrived inter's worst finish was 5th in 2000-01 since mourinho their best finish is 2nd the next season after mourinho and since then they have finished in top 4 only twice, mourinho won them the CL and that was a great achivement but they were winning serie A and Coppa Italia before mourinho arrived. I am not blaming mourinho for their struggles just pointing out what happens when you trust him explicitly and let him sign whoever he wants unlike Chelsea or madrid where there was someone above him who made the decisions.

As you pointed out his signings, just look at their ages except for muntari, sniejder and that dud quaresma by the time he left most were in 30's and that hurt them badly. Mourinho has a history of selling young talent to get his win now toys, bonucci, lukaku, kdb and most likely martial will join the list.

16 May 2018 17:00:43
Shappy - Sorry mate I wasn't been critical and understand your point.

Even in we lose the cup final I'd still take our season over Spurs pal.

16 May 2018 17:10:30
2nd or 4th. Apart from a few extra quid, and some bragging rights over your mates, does it really matter that much nowadays?

16 May 2018 17:15:52
CSM - Fair enough pal I don't know enough about Inter to get into a serious debate but I think his signings were pretty good to be honest.

Ok some of them were pushing 30 but most were good experienced internationals that could still give good service to the Club. I accept you might not get any money back on some of them.

It's all about opinions pal that's why I like reading this site everyday. Some really good stuff on here on both sides of the fence.

16 May 2018 18:52:56
2 bald men arguing over a comb.







 

 

 
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