07 Nov 2016 15:07:40
I might be in the minority on this issue, but if joses comments about not being willing to put your body on the line were aimed at shaw and smalling i think its too harsh.
Shaw has just come off a very long layoff so i wouldn't be surprised if he has little niggles here and there and he is well within his rights to be cautious.
As for smalling mourinho admitted he wasnt 100% against chelsea and his performance was absoulutely horrendous on that day so i'm also not surprised he's cautious about coming back too soon.
Seems to me an issue which easily could have been taken care of behind closed doors and took unneccesary gloss off what was a very satisfactory performance yesterday.
07 Nov 2016 15:39:38
Jose is part of a much bigger issue in the modern game. Clubs are far to eager to just give players an injection to play through the pain, rather than allowing injuries to heal properly. If you look at players like Keane who will need a double hip replacement in the future because he played through the pain, then you can see the costs of this mentality.
Shaw is a young player coming back from a very serious leg break, and Jose should be mindful of how injuries could be more worrying to the lad. The public song and dance about being brave is unnecessary and narrow minded. It's the same attitude that led to Jose being brought to court for punishing Chelsea's club doctors for doing their jobs. Players will rarely rule themselves out unless the club doctors have given them reason to doubt their fitness, and Jose should listen to superior medical knowledge before mouthing all this bodies on the line rubbish.
07 Nov 2016 16:14:18
Danny, I don't think he's asking them to play through an injury. HE'S asking them to play through a bit of pain. Pogba got a dead leg on Thursday, I'd say it was stiff, bruised, maybe light pain when he ran but you can play through that. And he did. Apparently the medical staff deemed them both fit and they decided the weren't.
I don't see Jose's comments as an attack on the two players per se, I see it as sending a shot across the bow to everyone. If we want to get to the summit again they we need to change our attitude. We are brutal at winning 50/ 50s. We're brutal at picking up the second ball. The desire isn't there. It's too easy for a lot of those players. We need a cut throat philosophy and the players need to know, if they're not performing or they're not up for it, then there'll be someone right behind them ready to take their place. Survival of the fittest in my eyes and that's what we need!
07 Nov 2016 16:37:46
I couldn't agree more, Mumbles.
07 Nov 2016 16:41:53
So danny you think the club doctors will tell will things to players that will make players doubt their fitness but forget to mention the same to the manager? No one is asking players to play through injury but being in a bit of a pain and not being 100% because of it and being injured are two different things, this right now looks much like what klopp was telling sturridge.
With shaw dsg it looks more than an injury issue, he seems to have dropped off alarmingly since watford criticism and now this added raises question marks on his mentality.
07 Nov 2016 17:11:42
No Moyes, I think club doctors say to players - your injury isn't fully healed/ your body isn't 100% etc, but you could potentially play if you take an injection for the pain/ inflammation etc. But ultimately the decision to play is up to the player, who gets to decide if it is worth taking the risk to their body.
The problem is that certain managers expect their players to always take the injection because their motivation is the immediate benefit to the team, and not the long term wellbeing of the player. In the case of Shaw, he is most likely carrying a slight knock and didn't want to risk it getting worse, because, you known, spending a year out of the game can make you a bit wary of injuries. In Smalling's case he's coming back from injury, an injury agrivated because he played when he wasn't 100%, and he wanted to wait until he was fully fit.
Jose attitude is to try to shame players into risking injuries by pretending that it's some macho game of being a tough guy, and risking your career to show how hard you are. There's a reason why Phil Jones is so injury prone, and it's because he's always willing to put his body on the line, regardless of his condition. So yay great for Jose this week because he'll play 90 minutes while not fully fit, but not so great when he's back in the treatment room in a few weeks.
Above all, this is the type of stuff that should be addressed in private, but Jose would rather bad mouth his own players than act like an adult.
07 Nov 2016 17:38:57
Totally agree, Danny. Should really have read this thread before posting my own view above. It would seem that people are so desperate for us to succeed, they're willing to overlook anything Jose does or says. It's not being disloyal in anyway, to point out that he might have crossed a line in the way he deals with players. I'd be annoyed with any manager, even Moyes (. ) who appears to be picking out a young lad coming back from a horrendous injury, for special criticism.
07 Nov 2016 17:41:55
I think his comments about Shaw in particular were well out of order. We were playing one of the worst teams in the league and gave several options for that position .
Considering the severity of the lads injury, the length of time he was out and the fact that he can't be 109% up to speed yet, if there is even the slightest doubt about him he shouldn't be risked . If he had played and broke down again it's not Jose who would suffer.
07 Nov 2016 17:58:56
Danny how is a slight knock as you put it different from what pogba suffered against fenerbache, i get trying to be cautious but you are playing 3 times a week many a times, a player is not going to be a 100% if they start excusing themselves for every single niggle or pain we might start needing 50 man squads.
07 Nov 2016 18:01:13
So bilko having the first choice rb injured, 2 first choice cb's out and our only other option suffering from fatigue and having to play a winger in defence is now considered lots of options.
07 Nov 2016 18:18:11
We still had Blind on the bench who can play left back and Fosu Mensah who can play there and like I said we were playing a piss poor team, it was hardly a situation where taking a rush with a player was necessary .
07 Nov 2016 18:25:36
Only my opinion but are either of the players in question good enough. Would you play a younger Evra or Shaw? Would Smalling get in the team above a young Rio. In my eyes these players aren't good enough and their attitudes suck. If we want to get back to where we were then we need the best players for their positions and let's face it, we're quite a way off that.
I think we won the game because Swansea were poor not because we were good, but like I said, just my opinion.
07 Nov 2016 18:32:18
I think you're missing the point. Pogba, Shaw and Smalling all had to make decision based on medical advice and how they felt. That's what the professional code of conduct is: players and managers receive medical advice on who is fully fit, who needs to be rested, who is injured, and who could potentially play albeit with some risk of exacerbating slight injuries. But the player makes the final decision.
If a player is consistently refusing to play with neglible risks to their long term fitness, then the club will obviously want to address that with the player. But if it's one game, then the very least the manager should do is to discuss it in private, if it needs to be discussed at all. Jose's attitude is that he should decide if a player is playing, and if they defy him he'll spit the dummy and try to publicly humiliate them.
The Smalling example is classic Jose. He asks a player to play while injured, the player does and plays very poorly, and exasperates the injury. But Jose sings his praises and defends him. However, when the same player doesn't want to risk their recovery from that injury, he's a coward and not sufficiently committed. It's just bad man management, plain and simple.
07 Nov 2016 18:38:43
Shaw, pre-injury, was one of the top prospects in the country in his position, and had showed why on numerous occasions. Will he ever get back to that level? Who knows. But I don't think this constant humiliation from Jose will be helping in that regard.
07 Nov 2016 19:31:36
Hardly humiliation stevie. If he is of the right character he will grow a pair and prove his doubters wrong including his manager. If he can't take a bit of critisisim he is in the wrong game. His defending against watford was poor. G Neville said it grow up take it in board and get on with it. If he is that mentally fragile he is at the wrong club and in the wrong job. Broken leg or not.
He was sent home from an England squad recently too for am unstated reason. 6 games for u21s might do him good and if he thinks he is above that then he is sorely mistaken.
07 Nov 2016 20:24:47
Why single him out tho, Ken. Has he been our worst? Zlatan didn't score for a lot of games, Rashford's in the same boat, Rooney's been average, Martial's been invisible, and the rest have hardly been pulling up daisies. Yet, he singles out a young lad coming back after a bad injury. You could hardly call Martin Keown a shrinking violet, and he said today he would have been knocking on the manager's door first thing this morning. It's hardly brilliant man-management.
07 Nov 2016 20:39:29
why do it with the media, why not keep it in house .
things should stay in the dressing room.
jose done the same with hazard last season, said he wasnt injured and it caused trouble .
should sort it out behind closed doors.
07 Nov 2016 20:52:19
I disagree. I see no harm in it. Personally I would respond in a different manner. Fergie did it to Keane to Beckham to rio be questioned them and their attitudes and character very publicly at varies stages and they proved they were made of the right stuff.
07 Nov 2016 21:13:02
I think fergy was very strong on keeping things in the dressing room.
There is nothing to gain from criticising a 21 year old kid in public imo or putting pressure on him to play if he has pain in the leg so soon after a bad injury like that .
Reports Shaw has been playing with pain killing injections . If the leg isn't right he shouldn't be playing, he is only kid and could ruin his career.
07 Nov 2016 21:38:44
Good man-management is about knowing which player can take a rollicking, and which one needs an arm around them at a certain point. You should know that as a coach, Ken. Not all people are the same. Fergie mentioned many times that he knew which ones he could give a roasting to, and which ones he would tread more softly with. The point is that it should have been kept in house. That's twice he's called out Shaw now, when others have been just as deserving.
07 Nov 2016 22:37:35
It's Mourinho through and through. In my eyes he was wrong to do it. You defend your players in public and tear them a new one in private, if that is what is needed. You don't wash your dirty laundry in public. It is going to go Pete Tong if he isn't careful, and sooner rather than later.
{Ed007's Note - Why was it Luke Shaw himself and not any the medical team that told Mourinho that he couldn't play and now there's stories that he took a knock on his previous injured leg during the game in Turkey, bit convenient that isn't it?
I don't remember seeing anyone saying he was a doubt for the weekend after the Fenerbahce match but I might have missed it.}
08 Nov 2016 00:08:29
I agree that Mourinho is too outspoken about players fitness.
However I am sick of the constant injuries to players like Smalling, Jones and Rojo. I have sympathy for Shaw on the basis that his injury was particularly bad.
However I want rid of the players who are always on the treatment table as it unsettles the balance of the squad and is not value for money when you consider the wages and transfer fees involved.
There is still deadwood at Utd which to get rid of.
08 Nov 2016 00:11:01
These players are pampered beyond belief. I'm fully on mourinho's side. Someone needs to tell them how lucky they are. They're being asked to play through a bit of pain. The medical staff deemed them fit. So let them both grow a pair or go elsewhere.
They've been found out and the truth hurts.
08 Nov 2016 03:53:34
Brendan maybe he tried to tell them privately and it clearly had no impact so it might be jose's thinking that a public rollocking is the only way to go, we had far too much player pampering over last 3 years, i would go as far as saying jose faces a similar situation to what fergie did, fergie had to sort out the drinking culture that seemed prevalent at utd then jose's got to take care of a bunch of crybabies who seem to go running to press anytime a manager treats them for what they are, over pampered over paid prima donnas.
08 Nov 2016 04:28:37
To be short sweet and simple, the players bloody well deserved it. And if they can't take it, well what do you know, there are hundreds of other teams that you could play for. your not Manchester United.
08 Nov 2016 03:40:27
my point exactly ed007, jred i don't know how to embed videos here or i would have posted one of sir alex absolutely going crazy on the pitch with jonny evans a 22 year old jonny evans, how stupid of him isn't it to criticize a poor 22 year old.
08 Nov 2016 12:38:18
I don't disagree that some players need a kick up the arse, and that they may have had an easy ride of late, but let's face it, Mourinho has history of this type of thing, so he is just as likely just to have come out with it as he did before anything else. Added to the fact it seeems some players are free from criticism, much like Rooney has been in the recent past.
His methods usually work for a short period and then he hits major trouble. Maybe the easy life a lot of players have had, along with what everyone knows about Mourinho these days, is meaning that he is hitting these troubles before he can even get any success at United. His past episodes must play in players minds no matter how tough or dedicated they are.
Mourinho has my support, but only as long as he is the manager of United and isn't dragging the club down to his own level. The way he has acted and treated people in the past has been a disgrace, and I see no evidence that this has changed in the slightest. This is the club I have supported my whole life, and it means more to me than a season or two of success, at the expense of a man willing to drag it through the sh*t. I love the success as much as anyone, but not at the expense of the club as a whole.
08 Nov 2016 15:43:26
I know Johnny Evans. He's a single-minded, stubborn bugger. The sort Fergie knew could take a bollocking, no matter his age. He also hadn't just been out for 14 months with a serious injury.
08 Nov 2016 15:43:26
I know Johnny Evans. He's a single-minded, stubborn bugger. The sort Fergie knew could take a bollocking, no matter his age. He also hadn't just been out for 14 months with a serious injury.