11 May 2024 11:05:18
Shappy has written an article entitled, Evaluating Potential Manchester United Managers
11 May 2024 11:57:32
Agree with most of that shappy, although I do think tuchel may be what we need at this moment in time. Up until after Christmas I would of been happy for ten hag to continue but I just don't think he has improved any player. His recruitment has been a massive let down and can't see him turning things around.
Interesting choice in the Bournemouth manager.
I don't know anything about the sporting manager but agree he should be high up on the list.
Southgate is a no for me but I've just got the feeling it will be him.
I wouldn't be against potter at all. I was impressed with how he built the Brighton team and he does have a good relationship with Dan ashworth.
Wants essential is if it's a new coach or ten hag, they need to be all in line with the new set up. A clear structure and plan and the team can go from there.
11 May 2024 13:12:47
Iraola is the interesting one of the list, probably a season or two too soon for him.
I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a 2-3 year manager like Tuchel. Let the new structure and staff settle in and get the players they want to suit the style they want to play, then getting in a longer term replacement who can coach that style.
11 May 2024 13:28:45
Shappy - I thinks that’s a pretty fair and insightful assessment pal.
Where do you stand on EtH?
I think when we consider EtH the most likely candidates should form some part of the discussion.
Southgate, Potter and Touchel are the names most strongly linked!
11 May 2024 13:43:37
Tom, I don't think there is any point in going for a quick fix "kick up the backside" type manager.
You can't rebuild while still trying to just skim a little plaster over the crack in a subsiding wall.
What advantage does hiring someone like Tuchel bring?
We don't have a squad capable of challenging so he won't win anything of significance in the short term.
He doesn't really have a record of developing and improving young players, so what happens with the likes of Mainoo, Garnacho and Højlund over the next couple of years?
He doesn't play entertaining or exciting football, or has a track record of settling the foundations for a long term playing style. He's fairly reactive and pragmatic as a coach, looking at how he can win the battle and not the war.
He has a record of falling out with CEO's, sporting directors and players. He hasn't got a record of really galvanizing a group of players and setting up clear standards or expectations to create a harmonious dressing room that are driven to work hard for eachother.
In which case what issue that we have does he solve?
When he'd invariably leave in 18 months time, he wouldn't have changed the atmosphere or issues in the dressing room.
He won't have won anything of significance.
He won't have set a clear and consistent playing style.
He won't have helped develop the younger players in the squad into the top stars. He may have even hindered their development with his negative, reductive approach (particularly as 2 of the 3 beat young players in our squad are offensive players) .
We'd be back exactly to where we are now, but just 2 years down the line.
Still needing the dressing culture fixed.
Still needing a clear style of play.
Still probably needing half the squad rebuilt to suit this new style of play.
Back more or less at square one, what is the point?
I'd rather have a young manager and 2 years outside of the UCL (if that was needed) to actually make real progress and to start to see our club turning around.
To have a culture at the club that demands excellence and has the highest standards. Players working hard and dedicated to becoming better players and a better team.
To have a clear style of play, ideally one in keeping with the Manchester United offensive, entertaining, style of football.
To have seen our young players develop into players on the cusp of becoming or even actually world class by that point.
To have been able to rebuild the squad in this image by steadily removing players who don't suit this new direction of the club, and by recruiting those that do.
Any new signings will struggle to succeed if they are being bought by the club to suit one vision, but are being asked to play differently due to a manager looking to constantly tweak the playing style/ tactics to win the current game and not embed a playing style. So even if the clubs recruitment is better under the new structure, if the manager isn't pulling in the same direction then the players will struggle to adapt to the club and perform to the best of their ability. Right players, right club, wrong manager.
If we replace the manager then it has to be a full reset, someone who perfectly fits the vision of the club, so everyone is pulling in the same direction towards the same goal.
11 May 2024 14:18:36
Problem is there is no obvious replacements at the moment, the English contingent, Potter would crumble under the pressure especially after his comments while managing Chelsea, Southgate would be more resilient, but is he the right choice, most seem to say no.
The others are all untested managing at club like United and could be chewed up and spat out during the transition period we see over the next few years.
Before we throw another manager to the lions, let's get our structure sorted, our backroom staff in place and the recruitment working.
11 May 2024 14:47:12
DLIB, at the moment I'd still keep EtH for next season. Give him a year with a proper set up around him and see what he can do.
Worst case scenario is he isn't up to it and you replace him next summer when his contract is up and you don't have to pay him 5-8m to leave.
While next summer, the new structure will all be fully in place, they will have time to assess what they want and who best suits that. Also they are probably in a better position to get the right guy in for the set up they have at that point.
It gives them time to plan it better and make any transition smoother, rather than rushed like it'd be this summer.
I'm not fully convinced by any of the options available, with some of the younger managers looking like probably the best option. Yet in a years time those managers will have another season under their belt, and a bigger body of work to judge them on, meaning that you can be more sure of who suits the project and who doesn't.
That said, the feel around the club is starting to get toxic again, the media and the online fanbase are starting to bay for blood. If things don't turn around quickly then it might be too late for EtH to be given a chance next season as the tipping point will have already been passed.
A heavy defeat tomorrow against Arsenal could finally put the writing on the wall. To be honest I don't see anything less than a 3-0 defeat at absolute best. Arsenal are arguably in the best form of the season, hardly conceding any chances and scoring for fun. While we just got humped by Palace and have absolutely no fit CB's to play.
I genuinely fear we could have a record defeat tomorrow, and if that happens it won't matter whether EtH has the ability to turn it around or not, the noise will become so deafening that it will become impossible for the club to give him that chance. He might not even make the FA cup final, possibly with McLaren taking over first team manager duties for the final game or so of the season.
11 May 2024 15:08:42
Problem is… THERE IS NO VACANCY lol :p.
11 May 2024 16:11:13
No spenno there isn't a vacancy. Oh wait on. Sorry he's gone and he knows it and so the players. ken has told them, and us multiple times. ?.
11 May 2024 16:44:24
Spenno and Fizz, while there is no vacancy atm, and personally I'm still in the give EtH another year camp, the reality is that the managers position is very likely to be available this summer.
Looking at how the new co-owners have started to clear shop with the backroom team it would be surprising if they happened to feel the current manager was the best man for the job.
While the current form of the team, the results and the general building of a feeling of unhappiness with the manager seems to suggest that it's highly likely that EtH will not be Manchester United manager come the start of next season. Whether you're for him or against.
11 May 2024 18:23:04
That's all fair points on tuchel. I just feel he would do a good job, don't know why just a gut feeling.
Like I say I was all for backing eth until after Christmas. I just can't see him getting a tune from these players.
My preference would be potter but has he got the personality for the job? I'd like to think he would grow into the job knowing he had time and the backing of the new football structure.
To be honest I'd be happy with a coach who got the best from the players available and had a clear vision which was in line with wilcox and ashworth and who ever else we appoint.
11 May 2024 19:00:52
You'd think SJR and his team would have gauged the feeling amongst the majority of Utd fans in being totally underwhelmed by the thought of Southgate being appointed.
I'm not saying clubs should be ruled by what fans think by any means, but you'd think if ETH does go then the new leadership structure would want to start off on the right foot with an appointment that the fans could get behind, or at the very least not be apathetic towards.
11 May 2024 21:10:47
Has EtH been sacked? .
11 May 2024 23:24:03
I don’t think any established manager would want the job realistically would they? Half the squad are pish poor and the likes of Zidane/ Mourinho/ Tuchel/ Conte etc usually prefer established players and wanting to compete for titles. Given recruitment is meant to be leaning more towards younger players I’m not sure any of them would get the signings they’d want in or the club would have to pivot from their plan from the start.
Then the younger up and coming managers, they might be tempted by the job if they feel like they’re sort of immune from the sack whilst the squad is turned over etc. Else why risk a promising career and potentially end up like Potter at Chelsea. Tainted by a job that was impossible and sacked despite being promised time to fix things and establish a culture.
12 May 2024 01:00:05
You can't keep EtH but not back him (extend contract, continue ue to buy players to suit his style of play) as the player power nonsense will not go away if they believe he is always standing on the presipice.
I would give him a 2 year deal and commit that the club is going to commit to the reset that is necessary and actually seeing it through.
If there is no improvement you can still pull the trigger on a new manager if the new management team have seen enough.
Whatever they do, I hope they can move quickly and efficiently. Sick of seeing the media feasting on our entrails! can't wait to have the club and fan base pulling in the same direction again.
12 May 2024 09:45:47
Tom, that's kind of the nexus of the problem any manager will have at Manchester United.
We have a disjointed, Frankenstein squad that isn't suited to playing any specific style of play.
That means the manager (whoever that is) has one of two choices.
1. They try to impart a style on the squad knowing full well that a large majority of them won't be able to play that style to the required standard. That means performances and results will be very inconsistent. The aim isn't to win in the short term but to develop a playing style. That will take a couple of season's while the squad is rebuilt to suit that style. That probably means taking a step back and a season or two of not getting top four while that new style in developed and the squad built to suit it.
I know some people will say other managers have managed to impart their style quicker at other clubs. Yet the reality is that they have a squad that is for the most part capable of playing their style and they have been hired because they suit the squad the club has.
2. The second option is to be pragmatic, to try and get the results by changing your teams style and tactics on a game by game basis to suit the players you have and to mitigate the strengths and take advantage of the weaknesses of the opposition. This will probably get you more consistent results in the short term but long term isn't improving the team or developing a specific playing style.
Looking at the club and the fanbase it's funny how things flip.
At the start of last season EtH tried to impart his style on the team, the first option, and we lost the first couple of games as he didn't have a squad capable. He then changed tac and went with the second more pragmatic option. We got results and finished 3rd and made two cup finals.
Personally I think EtH realised quickly that he needed to get results and he didn't have the squad to play his style in the EPL.
Yet the fans complained that we hadn't really developed a style of play, something they wanted and hoped for when we hired EtH.
This season there seems to be a change in approach, maybe the manager hoped with a few more signings he could start to impart his style more effectively. Either way he has chosen to stick to his guns this season and keep going with the project and trying to impart his style on the team. While we would have likely still been inconsistent as he doesn't have the squad to play his preferred style to the level needed, the injuries have had a massive effect, totally undermining any chance of getting a consistent run of games together with the core players he needs to play his style of play.
Here is where the fans impatience has caused a flip, those same fans who were crying out for a specific style of play to be developed in the team are the same ones now saying that the manager needs to be more pragmatic and play a way that suits the players he has.
It's a damned if you do, and damned if you don't position for the manager and why until the fans as whole fanbase wise up to what needs to happen.
If you want us to rebuild and become a power in football again then we need to strip it back. We need to start to impart a style, we need to rebuild the squad and that will take YEARS, not weeks, not months, not even just one season.
We will need at least two whole seasons of recruiting players to suit that new style AND attempting to play that style every week, in every game regardless of results or performances.
If that means two seasons finishing somewhere between 10th and 6th then that is what is needed.
It means as fans we will be the butt of jokes from other fans, it does mean we will have to watch many bad losses, inconsistent football and be okay with being frustrated.
It's a long road and we will need patience to see it through, we can't just abandon the project because we feel we haven't seen enough progress after a few months, or even after 18 months.
To be able to consistently play a specific style of play to a high level you need 14-18 players who are both well suited to play that style and of the right quality to play it at the level needed to compete at the top.
We might have 4-6 players currently that fit both those demands. If we get our recruitment right this summer then we might have 10-12 players capable, which means we will still be inconsistent next season. If we get the recruitment right the following summer then we might have 16-18 players that fit the demands for the start of the 2025/ 26 season.
Yet they will still need to bed in and find their feet so towards the end of that season you might start to see it coming together more consistently.
Like I said though that would require a near miracle in getting all of our recruitment right, 10-12 signings over two summers where every single one is a success and none of them flop or fail to live up to expectations.
That probably unrealistic, if 80% of your signings are a success then you will be the most successful side that summer. Which means it's more likely to take three summers to get the squad we need to play a specific style, consistently to the level needed to get us competing at the top end of the league.
Which means probably towards the back end of the 2026/ 27 season before we see us playing a good style of football, consistently to a high level.
Like I said it's going to be a long and hard road, and the fanbase needs to get on board with it. They need to learn to accept that, gain some resilience and patience. To support the club through thick and thin, and there will be a lot of thin over the next 2-3 years.
12 May 2024 10:02:02
Nou, the needs to strike that balance between keeping the he fans onside while also not listening (or taking to heart) a single thing they say.
Individuals can be extremely intelligent, groups of people are always stupid.
Listening to the crowd and is a sure fire way to failure.
There is loads of research into group dynamics. It's that mop mentality that kicks in in large groups, where the loudest and most aggressive voices rise to the top and the rest follow. It is in group situations where people often commit the worst acts. They do things in a group that they would never do on their own. That is why we get violence at football games and why decent, good people end up chanting about and mock the dead in the terraces. The vast majority of these people would never say those things when on their own.
Oddly we are seeing this group mentality even filter through online. Polarised opinions, and keyboard warriors. There is no middle ground, you have to pick between two extremes of opinion. If you try to stay neutral you get hounded out, if you are slightly to one side or the other you are put into the same category as the extremists of that view.
In terms of the current manager debate, it is practically impossible to back the manager and also accept or even discuss mistakes he has made without people trying to push you to one of he extremes.
If the club listens to or even tries to appease fans then the club is doomed. They need to hire the best people for the job and back them. The fact that most fans think they know more about football than the current manager or any football manager just proves the point.
If you'd listen to a manager tell you why they made a decision but then ignore that because John down the pub who once played Sunday league thinks he knows better so you'll sack the manager then you are letting the lunatics run the asylum.
The club needs to communicate better with fans 100%. They need to keep fans clued in as much as possible about the club so that the fan opinion is as informed as possible. That should stop a lot of the unhappiness and the misconceptions that fans have that drive that discontent.
Yet they should never listen to and act on what we say. As individuals for the most part we have common sense, intelligence and a decent grasp of our club. But as a group we are a pack of baboons.
12 May 2024 10:16:07
Fuser, I don't think it makes sense to hire an established manager. We are 2-3 years away from being in a position to actually challenge for major honours and none of the established managers will be willing to stick around that long without being able to truly challenge.
We need a project manager, someone willing to put the work in now without any expectation of a pay back for years.
We are better off with a younger, idealistic manager who wants to impart a style and build something for the long term. Because as a club we won't win anything of not until 2027 at the earliest I suspect, if not later. The manager needs to know that and the be the one to start building towards that. They will need to have personality and an unwavering strong mentality as they will have to deal with all sorts of negativity from the press and the online fanbase. They may even have to endure being booed in their own stadium. All without cracking or wavering from the plan. They will be called deluded and have their ability questioned time and again. They may even become a laughing stock, yet they will still need to stick to their beliefs and the plan.
Klopp was labelled "Flopp" during his first two seasons at Liverpool. Yet now he's regarded as one of the best managers in the world.
Arteta suffered the same, was made a laughing stock, mocked, questioned and derided. Yet he stuck to his guns and the club backed him and now he's considered one of the best managers in the league. Someone who can rival Pep through playing a similar brand/ style of football, on a smaller budget.
The next manager will suffer the same as EtH is suffering now, he'll probably have to suffer worse.
We need a young manager whose ideals match the clubs, and who has that gritty unwavering mentality.
I actually think EtH has that mentality, that ability to come out to the press and believe he is right and that he knows more than the journalists and fans about what is going on at the club and what is best for the club. That belief in himself and the project. Does his football philosophy match what the club wants who knows. If it does then he could be a success with the right structure. If not then it's best he and the club part ways and we find the right man.
12 May 2024 11:21:21
Shappy, pretty sure I said no experienced manager would want the job didn’t I? Also said a younger manager could be tempted if the higher ups will stick to their plan and not sack him if the results aren’t great initially.
12 May 2024 13:07:52
Fuser, it's not about whether they would want the job or not, I don't think that profile of manager makes any sense for us to hire at this stage.
12 May 2024 20:11:47
I am less concerned about the manager thn i am the structure above him being right. If the right people are running the show the will find the right man for their vision. I don't care of I haven't heard him, if we start moving towards an end vision I will be happy evening that means a step or two backward due to having to clear out dross and bed in youngsters who will eventually make it.