13 Jun 2023 12:37:52
Tris, really interested in how you would feel if Liverpool were bought by a state with different values to the UK. How bothered would you be?

{Ed001's Note - every state has different values to each other, but I would be bothered because I don't think state ownership of football clubs should be allowed. They have national teams, if they want to get involved in football they can work on improving them. So I would be devastated. Not sure how much it would actually affect me though as I have long ago lost the connection with football and the people involved in it. They live in a different world from the rest of us.}

1.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 13:52:02
I think we're one of the few clubs that don't actually need a state to own us to compete. We just need competent owners but sadly in football they're few a far between.

I think the Glazer ownership has skewed peoples views on state ownership for us. We've quite frankly had absolutely awful owners who have cannibalised the club from the inside. We've watched our rivals overtake us domestically, we've watched multiple clubs move into better stadiums, Carrington is nowhere near the standard it should be. Fans are hurt that nearly £1.5 billion quid has walked out to service debt leveraged against the club. There is now a thought "we actually deserve to be backed financially now".

Obviously we would rather have owners we can respect but sadly there are no billionaires out there that don't have a plethora of ethical issues behind them.

Which leads me onto, Does sports washing actually work?

Qatar spent billions on the World Cup, stadiums, infrastructure etc. The tournament went off without a hitch. People aren't suddenly saying "let's go there on our holidays. "

Likewise with Abu Dhabi and the City Group and Saudis and Newcastle. All the fans seem to justify their clubs behaviour but will the Saudis have an army of Geordies defending their disgusting regime? I don't think so.

So if Qatar prevail, I'll cheer and support my football club, likewise if Jim does. I want become a pawn to sanitise their image. I want defend them in the pub but I will cheer every goal, I'll mourn every loss. They might own the football club but they don't own Manchester United.

2.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 14:11:08
Don’t think sports washing is really about tourism. More about deflecting from domestic rights violations as a means to stem potential reluctance of companies and or other states to do business with countries that commit mass rights violations.

For example, South African apartheid only fell apart once there was too much public pressure on states and companies to stop propping it up with trade. States like Qatar are trying to deflect attention from their crappy rights records by hosting flash tournaments and buying beloved sports teams. This makes it much more difficult to build up international protests and, more importantly, organised boycott initiatives.

Personally I see sportswashing as simply a perk rather than the reason for the Qatar bid. I doubt we’ll ever see something like the apartheid boycott again, and the Qataris simply have enough money to buy a shiny new toy.

3.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 14:40:20
Very insightful Danny, thanks.

4.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 16:19:24
Mumbles - For once I disagree, I think it’s becoming increasingly difficult to compete unless you have mega rich owners. Perhaps you can compete for a short time by making some good decisions, appointing the right people and recruiting well but the financial power of these Clubs means they are better equipped to absorb any mistakes which makes it very difficult to compete with then consistently over a longer period. City have now won 6 of the last 10 league titles.

The QIA fund are not only involved in sports but real estate, financial institutions, industry, retail, hospitality, transport, construction and investment funds. For example the QIA fund have invested in Heathrow Airport, Harrods, Sainsbury’s, The Ritz, The Savoy and The Shard to name but a few.

I find the moral outrage surrounding sports washing slightly curious considering Qatari investment is now so intrinsically integral to the Uk economy.

Having said that I fully understand any Utd fan who is opposed to Qatari investment in football. On an individual basis if you chose to make a stand against what you perceive as a brutal regime attempting to cleanse its soul using Man Utd as its vessel is an admirable stance however I don’t agree with the virtue signalling or criticism of other supporters who make take a different view.

The UK economy benefits greatly from Qatari investment and their investments probably already reach much further into our everyday lives than we even realise.

In my opinion of the options available I believe Qatar represent the best chance for the Club to be successful moving forward. We need investment not only in the team, but the stadium, the infrastructure and training facilities. Qatari investment is already prevalent and critical to the Uk economy and I have no intention in becoming a political pawn or getting involved in debates that are much more complex and complicated than some want to admit.

I’m sure some posters may find these views convenient or even repugnant and for those that want to be activists or take some form of moral stand than I applaud you but unless you throughly research the situation and apply the same standards to where you do your shopping or which hotels you visit then you might just be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

5.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 17:09:26
Brilliant post DLIB.

6.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 18:31:56
I agree DLIB. Brilliant post.

7.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 19:51:41
Can't argue with any of that DLIB mate.

8.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 20:12:22
Spot on DLIB.

9.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 22:01:30
Good post, Mumbles ?.

10.) 13 Jun 2023
13 Jun 2023 22:29:04
Fantastic post DLIB.

11.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 07:37:50
Fantastic posts all around with insightful views.

12.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 08:30:37
Some great posts here guys (Mumbles and DLIB) .

My view is if we look at the money that has gone out of the club due to debt management/ repayment then that's an additional 1.5bn, which doesn't include dividends which any potential owner would be entitled to take out.

We have also spent a further 1.5bn on transfer fees over the past 11 years.

The money we have spent on transfer fees is comparable to any other club in the world over the same period. No one has significantly outspent us despite their state ownership or backing by a sugar daddy.

If we were well run and just spent that money sensibly then we would have been competitive during the past 10 years.

Without the debt we would have had an additional 1.5bn to potentially build a new stadium or revamp Old Trafford, build a new training complex, a stadium for the youth/ women's team, or just invest further in the squad.

So I'm sure we could compete with any team without massive outside investment if we were just a well run club.

An arguement could be made that state ownership or a sugar daddy gives a club a security blanket to correct bad signings. Deals like Pogba, Lukaku, Maguire, Di Maria, Fred or Sancho (? ) Where a massive amount has been spent for a player who offers very little return either on the pitch or in terms of resale value. Maybe a sugar daddy could soak up those mistakes.

The reality though is a well run club would never have signed those players for those fees. Every one of those players we signed without serious competition due to the obvious ridiculousness of the figures involved. Even other poorly run clubs had no interest in getting involved.

If we are run well then big mistakes in the transfer market will be minimal and the club will be able to absorb them without too much trouble. The issue we have had is nearly all of our signings have been poor in terms of value for money. We have compounded a poor signing by making more poor signings, until we have a squad littered with them.

I don't think we need mega rich owners to pour money into the club, the club can generate enough of its own income to support itself. We just need a good owner who can run the club well. Make good decisions, hire the right people in the right roles, and get the club all pulling in the same direction.

13.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 08:31:37
Its business as usual. Don't get hung up stuff like this, its just noise. Happens everyday in many sectors around the world. Too many to mention.

14.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 10:38:07
Shappy - Whilst I greatly respect both yourself and Mumbles opinion I’m just not convinced. On the surface it looks entirely plausible that better people, making better decisions and better recruitment would make an obvious improvement but if you really study our revenue and expenditure the margins are perhaps not as healthy as you assume.

If the Glazers had implemented a re payment plan and paid off some of the debt over the past 20 years we’d be in a much better position.

There is more to running a football club than just spending money on player wages and transfers. The stadium and training facilities have been neglected and now need urgent attention, they can’t be ignored for much longer and that’s probably another £1.5b investment needed in the Club.

The Club is leveraged to its eyes balls, it can’t take on any more debt and the revenue just can’t cover improvements to the infrastructure of the Club. In my opinion this is one of the main reasons why the Club is now up for sale. In the past the Glazer family could just sit back, enjoy the divides and even use the Club as collateral for other personal or business opportunities. However the dividends have now stopped, the Club can’t afford any more debt and it also needs massive investment. I would imagine this has become a massive headache for some members of the Glazer family.

SRJ will take on even more debt to buy his share of the Club. Ok it might not be leveraged against the Club but it will need to be serviced somehow and with interest rates raising this would be very expensive. Additionally if SRJ needs to borrow money to buy his share where does he find the money to improve the stadium, training facilities and also invest in the team?

SJR is not buying the Club from a position of strength. The team is way off the pace and needs massive investment as does the infrastructure. Interest rates are high and borrowing is expensive.

In terms of revenue how does the Club now generate extra money? Champions League football will help but we face fierce competition to just finish 4th each season never mind win the league. The Club has exploited most partnership and sponsorship opportunities and that only really leaves the European Super League which is still being pushed by the likes of Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus but we all know how that ended.

My personal opinion is SRJ would be a disaster and just more of the same. He may have good intentions, although this is highly questionable evidenced by his pact with the Glazers and the Club just can’t afford any more debt. It needs massive investment which I just don’t think he can provide. I’ve not even mentioned his plan for the Glazer debt which will remain on the Club after 20 years of ownership, make that make sense as they walk away into the Floridian sunset with billions in their back pocket.

Under SRJ I envisage the stadium on hold and top 4 as the main priority, a change of ownership maybe but conviction and direction I’m far from convinced.

15.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 11:28:32
the widow of the journo killed by Saudis in the embassy wrote that she received a call from an Israeli intelligence officer who was in the embassy at the time but not involved who told her he knew who did it and that one of the perpatrators told him they cut her husbands arms and legs off whule he was still alive- on instructions of the saudi governemnt - yet here we are welcoming them into football clubs, players happy to go out there, fans happy to cheer their team on knowing who the owners are. Morals and football don't really go together, know it acaaept it we can't change it.

16.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 12:26:50
Boyfromburrenway, you really want to talk about cruelties committed by govts? You have read british history, right? If not, you watch the current news, right?

17.) 14 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 22:09:20
UA- we wouldn’t want the British government to own the club either.

You are absolutely correct in what you say- there is no moral high ground which can be taken on any country. I personally think state ownership shouldn’t be allowed.

18.) 16 Jun 2023
14 Jun 2023 23:07:46
UA, whilst I agree on that point, I wouldn't want the UK government owning United either.