31 Oct 2023 11:53:13
Imagine this fan base and what they would be like.

lets assume eth has been here for 5 years and in a pretty much settled side, a stable environment around the club with competent people above him and a core group of players who he has had and brought in and time to work with them.

We win 2 trophies and lose the league by a point or 2 and lose a cl final.

Then we spend a record transfer in the next window on a striker, a couple of mids, a loan and another striker to the tune of close to 150 mill.

We are sitting in 9th place after 20 games, 19 points behind the leaders and 10 points off 4th place. out in the 4th round of both domestic cups.

I know a PL manager that did that and still managing the same team and many have a very high opinion of him including myself as a manager.

1.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 12:07:53
In that 5 years did the manager win anything major?

2.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 12:34:59
Great Post ahmad. The argument is that klopp was getting his style across which is true to an extent but it was ineffective at the beginning because he didn't have the players to make the most of his system and direction. Child like posts from many. I can ignore some others that are bitter and have become anti-fans. They go on any the good old days and bill foulkes and sir Bobby but those guys would be ashamed of those types of fans imo. Better off without the ones that want the team to fail. I hope the slope off down the hole that they came out of. When the team is winning again they'll be back but they will be unwanted.

3.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 14:46:00
Is this another ken account? I can't be called negative or bitter, and calling out the issues right now doesn't make me either of those things.

Ted Man doesn't want the manager sacked, he is calling out issues, most if which seem pretty fair to me.

To all the optimists, tell me why Mount was our priority signing and why, after having signed him, he isn't playing.

Tell me why, when we needed a proven goalscorer, we signed a kid with potential.

Tell me ETH doesn't currently look like a rabbit in the headlights.

4.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 15:08:53
No issue at all with people asking valid questions being frustrated or disappointed ajh all of us fans are the same in that that regard.
Redman wants and is unequivocal in his wish for relegation if sjr comes in to join the glazers there was at least 1 other with that view in live chat. I find that disgusting and vindictive and it shows no respect to the thousands that rely on the club for their livelihood.
Where were you called out as bitter ajh? But if your that simple minded that you want the team relegated because you can't have your own way then I would call that bitter. But I strongly suspect your are not one of those. But if the cap fits.
I support eth still 100%. But if he is sacked it will be a case of the king is dead king long the new king. I won't be hoping the club nose dive because I don't agree with a decision made by the board.
I can't phantom a mindset where an anti-fan wants the club relegated because they are not having their own way. It's pathetic selfish childish and grossly insensitive to those that rely on the club.

5.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 15:35:34
AJH, last season our ability to create chances dramatically declined once Eriksen go injured. We just weren't able to progress the ball through midfield. Unfortunately he isn't able to play effectively for 90 minutes. So it's clear we needed someone to be that creative player who could progress the ball through midfield, ideally without losing the pressing and work rate that Fred offered when playing. Mount was a EPL proven, homegrown player who could offer the pressing and defensive work of Fred as well as the creation/ ball progression of Eriksen. An ideal player in many ways. However, his injury and the decline of Casemiro has meant that it looks like we either need a Casemiro replacement (ideal) or a more robust defensive player to play alongside him.

The original idea I think was to play an in possession shape of 316.
With one of the full backs staying deep alongside the CB's to make the three, with Casemiro ahead of them as the one. The second CM would then advance to be part of the front six. The six tends to have two players slightly deeper so it's more of a 3124 shape. This works either as a possession based shape where you peg the opposition in, or as a high pressing shape to win back the ball high. We brought in Onana as a modern keeper who can both play out from the back and sweep behind the defence. Two things absolutely vital to give the side balance when playing with so many players advanced.

The issues seem to be the injuries and the decline of Casemiro.

Without Martinez and Shaw we have to play players like Maguire. Who doesn't have the pace or mobility to play as high as this shape demands. Meaning the defence has to drop deeper. That creates more space for the lone midfielder to cover. We've also lost ball playing ability from the defacto back three, meaning progression of the ball has been severely restricted. Add to this Casemiro's decline then it's a recipe for disaster.

The whole system has had to be scrapped without the right players. That has left us with defenders who struggle to play out from the back and aren't comfortable being pressed. Meaning Onana can no longer trust his defenders to play out through them so is having to go long. This has negated a big part of why he would have been bought.

As mentioned that deeper defence has opened up space in midfield, which means even without Casemiro's decline we would likely have to drop an extra body back in there. With his decline it becomes absolutely vital. Which means that role that Mount was going to play has had to be removed as we need a more defensively solid deeper midfielder to both cover the defence and stop the midfield being over ran.

Which again means the attack in a man down, and has changed the structure of the attack. Add to this the loss of form of several players in attack (in part due to a reduced service to them), then you can see the plan to add that extra pressing creative midfielder in Mount to solve last season's creative issues is no longer an option.

That is why we are struggling and unable to play as we would like and why the new signings have let to live up to their potential. Quite simply due to injuries (and Casemiro's decline) we cannot play the way the manager intended.

As for Højlund, he was probably the player with the highest potential that was realistically available and suited the managers preferred style.

The only "proven" strikers available this summer would have been Kane for significantly more than Bayern paid for him, north of 120m at least. Osimhen for 140-150m, good player but I personally have concerns about him and don't think he's worth the gamble to pay above 90m for him at most. Not proven in the EPL, inconsistent touch and poor injury record. The only other proven player that may have been possible would have been a big offer to Real Madrid for Benzema maybe. However, that's again spending a lot of money and wages on a player well in their 30's. Something most fans would have complained about unless signing a player like Højlund as well as Benzema.

Every other player available are either unproven, not top class or a youngster with potential. We could have got Ivan Toney for example for 50m maybe. But he'd have been banned until January and while a very good, proven EPL striker he isn't top class. Then who could we have signed? Maybe Lautaro Martinez if we could persuade him to leave Inter. Probably a massive fee, not EPL proven and more of a second striker than a line leading striker. Not really the type of striker EtH tends to prefer.

Realistically that left Højlund and Sesko as two young players with massive potential who fit the right profile of player. We got Højlund the player more proven in a better league. Probably the best option realistically available without spending 150m.

6.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 15:37:24
Fastest manager ever to 50 wins. Won a trophy in first season and got UCL qual. Ravaged by injuries and off field issues. But yeah, let's see out the rest if the season with Darren Fletcher in charge ?.

7.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 14:24:06
Oakbark

Not in the first 2 years. He never had to deal with anything off the filed resembling us. he was also the benficiary of massive wind fall from player sales, countinho and few others and had a good structure around him if you ignore the typical fan moaning about club not spending enough. football fans for all clubs tend to think that way.

8.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 16:02:30
AJH - It’s yet another pointless post, hypothetical clap trap.

Ahmad have you just conveniently forgot to mention that the two trophies won was the league and champions league?! Are you also working for Sky and did you come up with the equally pointless and misleading Maguire propaganda (stats) we all saw highlighted in the Sheff Utd game by any chance? Are you really a serious Man Utd fan? Have you really resorted to manipulating statistics to prove that the club that you support has a toxic fan base. How very ridiculous!

The vast majority of Man Utd fans Do NOT want EtH to lose his job. I’ve see very few calling for EtH to be sacked and even if they were they are entitled to their opinion. What happens if EtH loses the next 20 games? Does that feature in your hypothetical universe? He’d get sacked, which is probably just as likely as him winning the league or champion league in the next five years! This is also hypothetical clap trap which has no place in a serious debate.

We all (well most) understand the wider problems at the Club extend beyond the manager however he is not immune from criticism if people perceive he’s made bad decisions or has been tactically naive on occasions.

Let’s hope he can turn this around and create a successful team which is surely what we all want.

9.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 16:35:42
A question would you take relegation if it 100% meant the leeches would be gone

I know I would and I would like to go to other away grounds taking thousands not like the 70’s but more enjoyable than the premier league crap

It might also get rid of some of the Glory Hunters from old Trafford, the atmosphere at Old Trafford is shocking these days

Half of the idiots who go probably don’t even know we used to called Newton Heath.

10.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 17:37:42
Blackpool, I agree on the atmosphere it very quiet, yet we have the loudest seat away fans. I'm sure the atmosphere would improve if we were winning and playing better but nothing compared to the likes of Liverpool or Newcastle to name just 2 imo.
To answer your question. No I would not even with that guarantee. We all want them gone but not to the detriment of thousands of people and to the club. It will take years to recover from where we are now it could take decades the other way.
Just try to be patient all bad things come to an end the same way all good things. Hoping for something that will cost thousands of people their livelihood is not a fair price to pay and its extremely selfish and unreasonable as far as I'm concerned.

11.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 17:45:05
Dlib I agree with some of that but to be fair your not sorry in using long shots to make your points yourself on many an occasion.
100% eth is open to criticism. Last week had me scratching my head and its not been the only time.
The football on display is a poor as we've seen for years.
I think he has been severely comprimised so far this season but still I would have expected better.
Imo. It's not a time for panic webs been in worse spots. It's a time for clear heads.
I think eth has got to clear his on head reevaluate and make some changes. It hard when your compromised so badly with injuries and off field issues. But this is the time when true leaders step up and rise to the challenge.

12.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 17:55:18
DLIB, I thought it was Poch, not Klopp, the OP was talking about, mate. But I get the frustration.

13.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 17:56:32
Cancel! Just saw his second post ?.

14.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 18:03:37
No I would never take relegation to even be shot of ETH, along with Shappy, Ahmed and GDS…. I’m shocked anyone would even consider it.

I would rather stick pins in my eyes, the only upside to the pins is would not have to see ETH team play again or see his boring mug on TV with yet another ridiculous statement.

15.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 18:25:08
My point ken, is that there aren't just 2 camps, many of us have more nuanced views. I don't want ETH sacked, nor do I want to be relegated, but that doesn't mean I have 100% confidence in him or think he is doing a great job right now. He needs to step it up as right now he seems to drifting aimlessly and making some very odd decisions.

16.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 18:39:06
Tumbleweed

I do not “want” nor am I unequivocal in “my” wish for relegation, nor am I saying that if Ratcliffe comes in.

What I said is that I would take relegation if it meant we got rid of the leeches. I want rid of them without it, but if the future of the club can be massively improved by them having to sell and walk out with their tail between their legs because of their greed, then I would take the pain of relegation for the better future for us all. I remember relegation so don’t need insults from you, some of which on live chat were poisonous.

17.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 18:40:11
Agree shamrock even the most disgruntled fans be it with manager or owners don't wish bad on the team
I get your view on eth. I don't agree with much of them but I was same with ole. But always wanted them to win even if it meant he stayed longer.
We have differing views on why things are they way they are just now and that's perfectly normal. What I consider abnormal is vindictiveness and selfishness.
Imagine not wanting the team to be successful because you don't like the owners. Moaning all the time even though you want and wish for the misery. Complete double standards you might as well tie barbed wire around your underpants and do the London marathon. ??.

18.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 19:03:43
DLIB

It took klop 4 years to win a trophy at Liverpool. In his first season they went backwards and finished 8th having finished 6th when rogers got the sack previous year. They finished 4th, 4th in his second and third season.

I don't work for sky but maintain we are toxic for players and managers. People don't like to hear the truth sometimes. The drama that comes with every loss between the fans and pundits makes it an environment fit for failure.

We are what we are. We have this entitlement syndrome from our Fergie years and having a hard time coming to terms with the idea we are not there anymore.

People talk about rebuilds and structure and all the things that's wrong with the club including players etc etc but its lip service imo as their patience level is in weeks rather than years.

This is not at you but a general observation of the vocal fan base.

19.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 19:10:21
Worse than barbwire on the underground, would be having Shappy reading you a story on earphones on a loop, that would crack anyone even SAS training would never tolerate that!

I support united who ever owns them, I rather the Glazers did not but that’s not in my control, I honestly would rather ETH was not the manager the club seems to have made the decision to try back after not backing Jose. I just don’t think he got the tools in his locker, never did think he had since day one, all the crap with the 15km run, made good PR but done more damage to the dressing room, that may work at Ajax and small clubs but comes back to bite you on the A***

I just look at his demeanour his personality his in game management and his buys, none of them things been good enough for supposedly one of the biggest clubs in football, they are ok for mid/ lower table clubs but he can get them 100% fit, play 100% his way 100% his team, all that is done, then the quality will kick in of the players and Liverpool City and Arsenal have the quality even if 5% better we don’t have it. That’s why he is not the manager I want backed, saying that I have no idea who is the man and don’t pretend to, but I know he can’t be man with no big club experience and he got to be a man manager and have serious high level tactical nous, again ETH got neither.

20.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 19:51:40
I would include you Ahmed as one of those ones who don’t like to hear the truth even when your seeing it with your own eyes.

21.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 19:56:56
Blackpool, No I wouldn't. I would not be prepared to gamble the future of the club, its ability to stay in existence and the livelihoods of all the hard working staff at the club on something as crazy as that.

Firstly, there are absolutely no guarantees that any new owner would be any better than the Glazers. We hope they would be, but there are many, many bad owners out there every bit as bad and some even worse than the Glazers. Just look at all the clubs going to the wall every year through mismanagement. How do you know that the new owners aren't just assessed strippers, selling off Old Trafford to be knocked down and turned into housing or luxury flats, or a shopping centre. It'd be a convenient location for all those moving up from London to work at Salford Quays. maybe we'd end up renting the Etihad and propping up City's finances even more.

Secondly, even if we get a good new owner the implications of relegation are not straight forward. We'd have to sell pretty much our entire squad as our wage bill would not be sustainable in the Championship. The only real option for players would be to heavily rely on academy players. Which means instantly makes getting out of the Championship a challenging proposition. Even if we can bring in some new players on lower wages, it would be an entirely new side that would take time to gel. For a club our size getting relegated to the Championship and the knock on effects would almost certainly mean at least two years down there if not more. There are many examples of this, big clubs like Leeds, Villa and Newcastle having a torrid time due to relegation, the need to clear out players and start a fresh, with the difficulties that causes.

Thirdly, the number of staff who would lose their jobs would be very damaging to the local economy and to those who have been a part of the club for many years. There would be a massive knock on effect to local businesses, with them earning less and some probably going to the wall.
There would need to be costs cut from absolutely everywhere. Staff, player wages, other expenditures. We would probably see the biggest relative collapse in revenue in the history of football. No European money, massive reductions in TV money, massive reductions in money from the league, massive reductions in gate receipts, massive reductions in sponsorship income streams, massive decline in merchandise revenues. You could probably wipe off 50-60% of our income over night.

While none of that considers that the club would more than likely still have a massive amount of debt, and how given the change in circumstances that lenders would probably be either calling in their loans or demanding a restructure on far less favourable terms for us. They would have to as the risk of them never receiving that money back will have just massively increased.

Hypothetically while seeing maybe a 50% decrease in revenue, it is likely that due to the drop in revenue that our interest and loan repayment would dramatically increase to ridiculous levels. It's not unfathomable that any and all money raised from selling off our entire squad would just go to banks and lenders to repay loans leaving little to nothing to spend to rebuild the squad.

While even if we had a nice new owner prepared to invest in the club to enable us to spend the FFP regulations in the Championship are much stricter than in the EPL and we would likely see our hands massively tied behind our backs.

So absolutely not would I ever wan the club relegated for any reason whatsoever. As the reality is that there is a very good chance that relegation for us would see the club go into administration and possibly out of existence.

Relegating the club to remove the Glazers would be akin with burning your house down to remove a flea infestation.

I suspect any fan that has suggested it has done so with absolutely no appreciation for what that would likely mean for the club and the reality of that situation.

22.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 20:04:43
The fam base should not be turning on the players or manager but demanding the board bring in a sporting director who can run the footballing side of things properly

If managers and coaches and players fall be the wayside under a proper plan then so be it. I don't want further sackings in the blind hope that if we do it enough we my luck in, I want clarity and vision from the top of the footballing side of things and changes only made to advance this.

23.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 20:19:46
Is Ahmad H and Ahmad the same poster?!

We’re not an authority on Liverpool mate, I’m not sure why they stuck with Klopp or if it took him 4 seasons? Did he not get over 90 points before he eventually won the title?! I’m sure if you ask Ed001 he’ll provide an insightful answer. In my mind they reached a Europa Cup final in his first season and were actually a dynamic, exciting team than trended to run out of steam in games.

I’m not sure it’s helpful to compare ourselves with other teams which we don’t watch every week.

The bottom line is EtH has to improve, I wrote a post last week that I’d like to him concentrate more on the performances but accept at Utd he also has to look after the results. He’s going through a really tough period let’s hope he can navigate his way through it and become the manager we all hoped for!

Let’s try and not call some of our own fans toxic, i haven’t seen or read any abuse just people questioning EtH tactics, signings, results etc I know I can be guilty of over reacting to some posts on occasions and I always feel bad afterwards. This is a fantastic forum and I think there has been some great reads on either side of the debate.

24.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 20:41:41
You are not rebuilding though if you are buying Casemiro for a kings ransom, he isn't going to be a part of a squad that challenges as by the time that's build he will be way pas it. However the 60 or 70 million you spend on him and 350k a week wages does hurt the rebuild because that cash isn't there.

Madrid had replaced him and wanted his wages gone to help find their rebuild. We obliged. Now we are lumbered with a 31 yr old with a lot of miles on the clock

I loved Cas last year overall, but there was always the question of was it a sensible buy.

There is flawed thinking at this àclub right now.

The ultimate aim for Those in charge has to be to compete for titles again. Every penny spent that isn't going to help that for me is ultimately wasted. Cas was crucial for Real for many years for us right now he is probably 150 million that isn't going to help us win the title so the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

25.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 20:53:28
Whilst I agree somewhat with the potential losses I do not think it would be anywhere near 50%. And gate receipts would change little as there are tens of thousands of fans who want to get into games and many more who would support the boys regardless of the league they are in. Of course there are many who would not, but they are not the real fans of the club, rather than the glory of the EPL. Of course the revenue would drop incredibly for the other reasons.

Would I want that to happen? Hell NO! Been there, done that!

On another note……. any chance we can limit responses to say 250 words? I get tired reading Shappy responses.

26.) 31 Oct 2023
31 Oct 2023 23:01:42
To nswer the original post, of after several years, a ECL and EPl, following a season 1 point behind city and losing a ECal we had an off year the fans would not turn on the manager, oh we would be saying we wanted changes, better players to replace an aging midfield and a ropey CB but if we had a manager who got the club the way Klopp gets Liverpool we would not turn on him en Masse at all.

You would obviously get a few who would online but you get them whatever.

Final point is don't judge a fan base based off a forum, it's not representative at all, and it's a hotbed of extreme views.

27.) 01 Nov 2023
01 Nov 2023 04:49:54
DLIB

They got 90 points in his 4th season and won CL. The message was they were 8th, 4th,4th and eventually clicked. We judge things in weeks and very vocal about it and the media writes stories about cost of sacking, players attitudes and just a plethora of everything with a negative connotation.

The guy is not a natural english speaker and anyone watching him can see he is not a politician in terms of how he responds. They throw cute questions at him and People twist his words and give it their own flavor to suit having a go at him, including people here.

The other day someone asked him about Jamie Carragher's comments, I am thinking who cares what that twat says and what a stupid question. I hope the first thing that changes have these Utube pundits get banned from press conferences because they are toxic. Fergie had no issues doing it to Richard keys for being toxic and a trouble maker.

The worst thing that has happened to the club are all these Utube shows who steal a living by just regurgitating bs that is printed in the media and embarrassing to proper journalism and rile up the fan base. Its this constant loop that follows the club. They have become enablers for the bs printed in the media by repeating it over and over.

28.) 01 Nov 2023
01 Nov 2023 08:37:47
shamrock

If there was any resemblance of some balance in your posts, I would be inclined to say there is some truth to that. unfortunately you have gone way off the reservation with your hyperbole views.

29.) 01 Nov 2023
01 Nov 2023 11:27:22
Keefy, no one makes you read them and I won't be offended if you skip over my posts.

The 50% figure was more so an overall taking into account the drop in all revenue streams. Obviously some would be hit harder than others. I have no idea if the sponsorship deals have caveats that include relegation or having to play in the EPL. We know many of them have clauses tied to UCL participation so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they include playing in the EPL as a must.

While I don't believe the number of fans attending games would significantly drop, the price they pay for addmitence would have to come down. You can't change the same price to see United Vs Arsenal or Liverpool in the EPL as you do for games against Preston or Bristol City in the Championship.

I suspect the demographic of fans attending games would likely change somewhat. Less fans travelling from London and abroad to go to games and far more locals. Again the additional cost of travel and possible hotel costs to see a championship game means far less people will be willing to pay out for a lower quality product.

This will also have a knock on effect to money being spent in and around the ground. Less people willing to shell out for expensive pies and drinks when they can be home in 20 minutes. Also a vast amount of the money spent in the megastore on match days are from fans travelling from further afield for the game than the local fans. Much the same for stadium museum tours.

So I'd expect to see less spent in and around the ground, less charged for tickets, as well as an overall lower attendance across the season. That would all lead to a significant drop in match day revenues. Maybe not 50% but probably north of 30%.

Other revenue streams would likely see much biggest drops, at least 80% probably significantly more for TV revenue. For example. In fact I can remember reading somewhere that United's TV revenue for the 20/ 21 season was bigger than the combined TV revenue of the top five Championship clubs.

So overall I think a 50% decline in total revenue is probably a conservative estimate.