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06 Dec 2013 09:17:10
Been away on a business trip to India, so slightly busy to post much recently but have still been watching the games as we see our shambles of a season continue.
First question, why are a lot of the posters trying to sledge the Everton fans. They stood toe to toe with us at Old Trafford, something our new manager was terrified to do, and ok they got a bit of luck with a couple of our efforts hitting the woodwork, but on the whole they more than matched us and deserved the three points. However the more important thing is we have so much to worry about with our own club, let's forget Everton for now.
Was Moyes the right choice? We all have our views on this, but I think the more pertinent question is, whether grit and hardwork can be sufficient to win the league. I think it is clear to all that Moyes is not a technical innovator, he is not a tactical wizard and he is certainly not a revolutionary manager in any sense of the word. What he does offer are fitness sessions designed to make his teams stronger and more durable than others. He seems honest, and frank with both the media and the players. Mind games don't seem to be his style. While this works perfectly for lower clubs, such as Preston, I think Evertons resurgence under Martinez has shown that to be in the upper echelons of the league, you need more than just hard work.
Next the players, his methods certainly seem to be getting the best out of Rooney, something Moyes deserves credit for. However this has come at the price of injuries to RVP and Carrick, two of our most consistent and reliable performers last year. The Dutch coach described Moyes methods as jurassic.
Now his system. It is clear that we are not getting results playing 442, but yet still he persists. This smacks of a lack of creativity with regards tactics both from Moyes and his coaching staff, who in my view should never have replaced the current staff we had.
So any solutions. It seems far too early to consider sacking Moyes, although this will raise its head as a prospect if we miss out on the 4th spot. I think Woodwards comments about having the money to turn it round suggested this as much as a change in playing staff. In the interim, it may be beneficial to try and bring in a more experienced assistant, who perhaps has worked at the club before and has experience of competing for the title. Someone who has the tactical nous that Moyes seems to lack. An ideal candidate would be Carlos Quieroz. His technical and tactical ideas, set alongside Moyes worth ethic and fitness drills could possibly complement each other perfectly and give us a fighting chance of rescuing our season.
Moyes made too many changes much too soon, and it has clearly backfired, I think the club now need to make some changes to rescue the 4th spot, and then can look to re-assess and take stock in the summer.
Thanks
RomanRunner
1.) We have played 4321 mate quiet a few times this season and only play 442 when both RVP and Rooney are fit. Stop being the manager and you try leaving one of those 2 out when both are available. Even when we play 4231, Rooney does not stay up there and likes to drift back and move around and get on the ball, which means there is no real striker in the box.
We are missing our 2 best players IMO in carrick and RVP and Everton did not deserve to win as we had them on the ropes for long periods but dismal finishing from players who snap at the ball and lack composure was our downfall. We score first and it is different story. I can live with someone saying a draw was not a bad result as they gave us a real game and played well and have the least losses of any team in the PL, so they are really good side, but to say that they deserved to win is stretching it but typical of some fans who like to over exaggerate.
2.) Wot game did u watch Everton with a better final ball could have hammered us . And wee play 442 moyes doesn't change formation
3.) Same game you watched. Played 4231 with Kagawa as number 10 and Welbeck on the left and were not getting much out of the game and then switched to Welbeck up front and moved Kagawa out left and dropped rooney in at number 10.
"Hammered us" definitely watched a different game you and I.
4.) 06 Dec 2013 12:22:05
Rogie, against Everton Welbeck played most of the game on the left hand side, which left Kagawa to play behind Rooney. Now you could argue that the formation was 4411 with Welbeck and Valencia playing as wingers, or you could say it was 4231 with Valencia and Welbeck playing slightly more in field. Ultimately those two formations are very similar, you just tend to play 4231 when attacking and then drop back into a 4411 when defending thus giving you two banks of four.
You could argue we played 442 towards the end when the subs were made and Welbeck was pushed infield when Kagawa was taken off with Nani moving to the left hand side.
But I would say that the formation was still a 4231/4411, I would say this as we played Januzaj on the right and Nani on the left so both were playing as more inverted wingers coming infield onto their stronger foot. Then Welbeck played as the furthest forward with Rooney dropping into the hole.
The subs were made to be more direct, with Welbeck being more of a target man and Januzaj Nani and Rooney all supposed to be feeding off him. Unfortunately it didn't work out as well as Moyes would have hoped, but the idea was solid.
As for the game itself I felt it was quite an even game either side could have won it but imo neither side dominated enough to truely deserve a win. Both sides had a similar amount of possession(although we just shaded it 52% to Evertons 48%). Both sides had a similar terroritorial percentages 27% of the game was played in Evertons defensive third, 26% in our defensive third and 47% in the middle of the pitch. So again we just shaded the terroritorial advantage. We also had more shots than Everton both on target and off target. So to say Everton were clearly the better team is just wrong.
It was a fairly evenly contested match which if you look at the figures we marginal were on top but not enough to say that we deserved to win but enough to say that we were unlucky to lose. A draw would have been a fair result.
Now whether you feel a draw at home to Everton is good enough for a team of our stature is another matter entirely.
5.) God Created United. At no point did I say leave either Rooney or RVP out, my point is that you play to your strengths. It is clear that they are two of our best players - indeed you could argue that along with DDG and possibly Vidic and Carrick they are our only world class players - and therefore they should play. My issue is more with Moyes insistence to stick with out of form wide players. We get dominated in the middle of the park but still nani or valencia and young or wellbeck get played out on the flanks. They create nothing and offer very little. Worse yet Kagawa gets shifted out there to try and fit him in the team.
Surely it would be better to try and different system. Play RVP up top and then have two of Rooney, Kags and Adnan behind him. Then a midfield three of Jones Carrick and Feilani (best of a bad bunch). That way if we need to shift in a game and add width we can from the bench. But that seems too much of a risk for Moyes and his tried and tested out wide and hit the byeline.
RomanRunenr
6.) Shappy we definitely played 4231 for the first 30 minutes as Fellaini pretty much played in out own half in front of the back four with gigs a little further forward. I also think we made the switch with Welbeck, whilst Kagawa was still on the pitch as Welbeck was very poor offensively on the left, hardly got a touch and Oviedo was making runs down the left wing without Welbeck offering much defensively either.
I do agree that when DM tried to win the game and brought Nani and Janusaj on we went to a 4411 formation as Rooney never plays that far up and always played slightly behind Welbeck and then Hernandez.
7.) Roman
Your formation makes 12 players unless you are referring to playing a back 3, which is never going to happen as you need certain type of personal for that formation and we have never played it and will be all over the place. Remember city last year and what a mess they were when mancini tried to get them to play that way.
If we have RVP and Rooney on the pitch it always lends itself to a 442 or 4411. Valencia offers much more defensive protection than nani and Janusaj and hence why he gets picked all the time. In reality we are very short of options given the type of players we have and left wing is a constant issue that has been there for 3 years now.
In short poor in midfield and tootles down the wings and hence why we struggling both offensively and defensively. 2 cm and a left winger will fix us the challenge is getting the right players and not settling for 3rd best or 4th best option.
8.) Sorry, jet lag for you, I meant two from those three in midfield.
I agree with your point about a lack of options due to the type of players we have. i'm not blaming anyone in particular but these are not new issues.
RomanRunner.
9.) Actually it doesn't make 12 players. DDG in goal, back 4, then carrick jones Afro, with Rooney and Kags/Adnan behind RVP. 11 Players.
RomanRunner
10.) Sorry I missed the 2 out of 3. you are talking about a 4321 formation. Might work although I believe it is too narrow and neither Kagawa or Rooney like to go out wide and always come inside and prefer to play through the middle.
08 May 2013 23:12:41
I have read a lot of posts on here today and this evening, slating Moyes but not really offering any reasons as to why.
I am against his appointment, but will back him as he inevitably gets the nod.
There are a number of reasons why I am against him.
1) The style of football Everton plays is horrible to watch. He sets out negatively and often plays to bully teams and settle for a point. People will argue that this is due to the players and budget he has, but contrast this to Swansea under Laudrup or even Wigan under Martinez. Similar budgets, possibly even lower standard of players but still play better football.
2) Will the top European players want to play for Moyes. If you offered a player the chance of playing for Manchester United under Fergie, Mourinho or Klopp etc, most players would bite your hand off. Can we say the same for Moyes.
3) He seems to fall into the same trap as Fergie, in that he is a brilliant motivator but maybe falls down tactically. This will be exploited in Europe especially and while Fergie was good enough and more importantly respected enough to get away with it, will Moyes be cut the same slack if we mess up an easy looking Champions League group.
4) The pressure to win something following Fergie will be immense, would a better option not be Mourinho as a short (ish) term option, as he would handle this pressure, and then have Moyes gain CL experience elsewhere and then take the job after.
5) The main positive people are arguing for Moyes is his ability to work on a budget. Put bluntly who apart from the Glazers should view this as a priority. With respect we are one of, if not the biggest club in the world. This should not be a key priority when picking our future manager.
6) The other argument for Moyes is that he offers longevity. Again this is a defunct argument, as if he has a poor CL and cup run and struggles in the league, will he be stuck with. Hopefully he does well, but nobody can be guaranteed longevity, unless they are successful, so it cannot really be used as a factor in choosing a candidate.
7) You cannot help but view him as a safe budget friendly option. If people are brutally honest, if we got Mourinho (and even better Ronaldo with him) and Chelsea or City signed Moyes, would you be that worried? No I wouldn't be, nor do I think any rivals would be exactly quaking if we get Moyes. Safe maybe, but certainly not eye-catching.
As I say, I am sure I will get accused of not giving him a chance, this is not true, I will back him, just as I will cheer Fergie at OT on Sunday and at the Hawthorns the following week. However, I would be lying if I said he was my choice.
RomanRunner
1.) Some good points, but I was thinking if Fergie gets 5million a year and Mou gets 10 mil/year do you think we'd go the extra mile to get him? or would mourinho take a pay cut?
I would like Klopp anyways
Sulei
2.) Agreed with all of it. Gutted. The One fundamental reason we have been so successful is Sir Alex, if we get Moyes our rivals will breathe a sigh of relief & top players will not only go to rivals but the top players we already have will leave, hence the Rooney rumours already. if we get someone like Jose or Pep (I know he's going Bayern), I think our rivals would s**t themselves. Wake Up United before the decline sets in. MAD DOG.
3.) If Rooney wants to leave, it is not the end of the world and maybe works out better for us. We are changing our playing style and he is already the odd man out. he has been played in various positions but not effective and there are better players in the market for each of the positions wings/cm.
Someone said he is the leader of the team, which I have to scoff on and wonder what team they have been watching this season. Rio, Vidic, Giggs are by far the leaders on the pitch and Rooney has been a periphery figure this season.
We have had better players come and go and and will continue to win.
I am not starting a Rooney debate as we have a much bigger issue to be resolved shortly.
Shahram
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Actually it doesn't make 12 players. DDG in goal, back 4, then carrick jones Afro, with Rooney and Kags/Adnan behind RVP. 11 Players.
RomanRunner
Sorry, jet lag for you, I meant two from those three in midfield.
I agree with your point about a lack of options due to the type of players we have. i'm not blaming anyone in particular but these are not new issues.
RomanRunner.
God Created United. At no point did I say leave either Rooney or RVP out, my point is that you play to your strengths. It is clear that they are two of our best players - indeed you could argue that along with DDG and possibly Vidic and Carrick they are our only world class players - and therefore they should play. My issue is more with Moyes insistence to stick with out of form wide players. We get dominated in the middle of the park but still nani or valencia and young or wellbeck get played out on the flanks. They create nothing and offer very little. Worse yet Kagawa gets shifted out there to try and fit him in the team.
Surely it would be better to try and different system. Play RVP up top and then have two of Rooney, Kags and Adnan behind him. Then a midfield three of Jones Carrick and Feilani (best of a bad bunch). That way if we need to shift in a game and add width we can from the bench. But that seems too much of a risk for Moyes and his tried and tested out wide and hit the byeline.
RomanRunenr
Hi Zee,
Not sure what has happened you used to be a ray of sunshine, and now the complete opposite.
Moyes wasnt my choice to take over in the summer, far from it, and I certainly wasnt thrilled about Rene leaving, but both of those things are done now. There is no point constantly posting the same whether we win, lose or draw.
Moyes is the manager now, like it or not, and all we can do is back him to grow into the role, instead of constantly looking for an opportunity to dig the knife in. We have actually played better the last few games (the sociedad game aside) and results are coming. We all now we had a shocking start, but we are 3 points of chelsea with the so called "second coming" and are steadily climbing the table. Win on Sunday and we blow it wide open. I for one will be cheering the team on, and backing the man tasked with replacing a legend - just an idea for you.
RomanRunner
It is negative because Young is ball bag. You name me another team in the top 4 of any top league that Young would get anywhere near the squad, let along first XI. Moyes is a top 6 manager, he will get results against lesser opposition, but put him against any top team and he reverts to negative, stop them play tactics. Very very poor.
RomanRunner