30 Sep 2024 23:12:22
When Postecoglu turned up at Spurs, a year ago, was anyone left with any doubt about his style? Were the board, the players, the fans? Did he sell everyone his style? Did he communicate? He has implemented it, no ifs or buts. Can they now see it? Totally.
At Old Trafford over two years and we are non the wiser, spent hundreds of millions on players this manager liked and it is a total utter shambles with no clear direction. That's the crux.
The owners employed experts, yet those experts were not all in place in summer, they were not as decisive as I expected or as they should have been. They have given themselves a real problem now, doubled down on the backroom staff, the summer buys. It really is not a good decisive start to the new part owners, you also wonder if the Glazers are not impressed with what the result has been so far. Not convincing.
However, I suspect they will be working on what to do now. Waiting until after the Villa game gives them a week to think. Make no mistake he has to go.
We can only hope they make a good decision both getting rid and hiring. If the club wants positive attacking successful football how can they possibly come up with an answer of Southgate? It would be another mistake for me. Set the requirements and look for the man.
When you look at our previous choices, none of the chosen managers were top of the tree when appointed. The owners need to get a manager that fits, that they know what they are going to bring, that matches the football they want. Don't tell us no one fits better than ETH
They have to get this right, this is the one they will be judged on. They dithered with ETH, but now go and get a game changer. I wish or I hope we are going to be dynamic someone on the up, who plays good attacking football. No matter who I write here someone will not like it, but be brave, like a Nagelsman for example. If they want to win the league in 28 its time to get it right, to be decisive is right now.
01 Oct 2024 07:00:23
I think it will be an interim appointment till the end of the season if they make a change and that makes the pool of candidates a few. The fantasy stuff on Inzagi or Amorem is fantasy to me, neither are going to be looking to make a change, leaving teams who are defending champions of their perspective leagues, playing cl football and also under contract which i assume will be very costly even if they were interested. Its almost like the Jan transfer window its a rare thing to get your hands on a top player and need to wait till summer and same thing applies to managers imo. This kind of makes RVN as possible candidate but is that throwing in the towel for the season or is he going to really improve things. he has one year of management experience.
We have a pretty decent run of games leading into December with the exception of a few. The hardest part of the schedule is the next two games.
I have never been a fan of sacking managers and its a sign of failure at the club and never want that.
01 Oct 2024 07:26:09
Interim is a terrible idea. Not sure there’s patience for potentially writing an almost entire season-off.
Besides. This is Man Utd. Get the man you want immediately.
01 Oct 2024 10:29:03
Would you take Xavi Redman?
01 Oct 2024 11:01:01
A few media outlets have suggested he has the next two games to show drastic improvement and get some results. Tricky two ties, in fact, I had Spurs as the easiest of the three fixtures. Can easily see us losing both which is a worry.
The dream team 'leadership group' consisting of all these hotshots listened to the clamour to keep ten Hag after the cup win, I'm not sure they will have done otherwise. Hopefully they listen to the clamour surrounding Southgate and Potter as I have no doubt they'd happily install either of those given their personal relationships with both.
Looks like we've got the wrong Dutchman, Slot's communication is spot on, the side is different but still effective, and he hasn't had to make a single signing to implement his plans.
01 Oct 2024 12:07:25
It all comes down to coaching and players enjoying their working environment.
01 Oct 2024 13:09:02
And believing in what they are being asked to do tumble!
Angel
The ex Barcelona manager or Alonso? Ex Barcelona manager no not yet, we are in turmoil after the start and the background set up isn’t there for him, similar to ETH who had the Ajax set up before.
01 Oct 2024 13:35:18
Ex Barcelona manager. Just considering the turmoil he was in the middle of. His ability to throw them together, young and old and win the league there.
01 Oct 2024 13:43:26
So all we are reading are the same posters reinforcing their opinion that ETH should go but not seeing any realistic options suggested that will improve the current situation.
On this thread alone we have seen an interim manager ruled out and Southgate and Potter ruled out. So, when myself and angelred were asked on our views on ETH, we stuck our head above the parapet and responded. So my question to the others who want ETH out, can you put your head above the parapet and give us your best, realistic options and why?
Red Man, I saw you suggest Nagelsmann which I think if we replace ETH that's someone we should look at rather than compromising on a manager just to move ETH on. But, I don't know how realistic Nagelsmann is? Perhaps someone has some info on his situation? I did read back when it looked like ETH would be going last year that INEOS were against him at the time so not sure if that has changed or whether that was just paper talk.
01 Oct 2024 14:12:54
Ports, for me it's not a question of who comes in its what they do When they come.
I have a few I'd rather it not be from my perception of them. But my perception of eth was that he would do a good job but he hasn't. So there is only one veto for me and that's ole because we have seen him be just as bad as eth.
I really don't care who it is. Southgate would not phase me one bit. Nor would Potter. Both have coached at a higher level than eth before he came here
I'd rather the likes of naglesman or tuchel particularly tuchel.
But I'm happy for anybody to give it a shot as I think every single name I've seen mentioned has the capability to do better than eth has done.
01 Oct 2024 14:52:55
Don’t think anybody could argue for keeping ETH at this point.
In terms of a replacement, why does it have to be a big name? Find a team that plays the style of football you like and get that manager. Doesn’t have to be from a top league, or have won leagues. The right manager is the right manager, no matter what their CV says.
Needs to be somebody who can coach and motivate the players. There’s plenty of other clubs that have appointed lesser known names that have succeeded.
Think we can all agree Southgate is the wrong choice. He doesn’t play attractive, attacking football, not sure he even coaches. Not sure on Potter, can’t really judge him on his Chelsea tenure. At Brighton he was good.
But a lot like being the England manager, the new boss needs to stick to his philosophy and pick players that fit that, and if that means Bruno for example doesn’t fit, he doesn’t play. Simple really.
{Ed025's Note - the trouble is FG that would these players have the respect for a lesser known manager, there are a lot of big ego,s in that United dressing room mate and i dont think ETH demands that respect and thats the main problem..
01 Oct 2024 14:53:04
Nagelman has clearly stated he wants to take Germany to the next world cup. I am sure if he was available with the volume of managerial openings this past summer, he would have made the move. If we change it will be interim and not getting any manager at any of the top clubs to move across, why would they. The fans would want him gone within 6 months if they don't get what they want an dour expectations are overly optimistic. ETH finished 3rd and won a cup in his first year and that kept the toxics quite.
I am not on board with the idea that the eth must go. its a tribal thing now a days with football fans. Tie him up burn him at the gates which is quiet sad.
I would do nothing if I was Ineos and give it till Christmas at a minimum. Pretty sure along the way we will have some really bad results and some very good ones. When you make a shift to change your style of play, integrate a bunch of new players who are quite young including our own young guys in a new system and teach old dogs new tricks and make all of it work as a cohesive unit it takes time. Add the pressure, expectations of United and the noise its not an easy job by any measure. You hope it clicks really quick but sometimes its does not happen as quickly as you want it and there are days like last Sunday.
People talk about rebuilds and give it time but some have a very different tolerance for the time frame.
I recall watching arsenal in Arteta's third season and early on that season I thought he is gone. I could see what he was trying to do but they were all over the place. Made horrible mistakes and would melt in some games under pressure. This same arsenal team less than 3 years ago got smashed 5-0 by city, granted they have added some key players last 2 years and reaping the rewards. Also recall Garagher week in week out being after arteta. poeple who claim to have been arteta fans all the way through are revisionist and liars lol
Somewhere, somehow they clicked. It actually clicked for them with a really good run post Christmas to May and they ended up finishing 5th i think from being like 9th/ 10th in Christmas. No I am not saying being 9th/ 10th at christmas is acceptable.
Sometimes the best decision and hardest ones are the ones that goes against popular belief atm and sticking to your plan. The fan base can be quite fickle.
01 Oct 2024 16:53:04
Come on Ken, back a horse. You’re given the keys to the palace, who would you realistically be appointing?
01 Oct 2024 17:13:05
Agree Ahmad.
01 Oct 2024 15:45:32
Ed25 - that’s where the new manager, whoever he is, needs to be harsh and drop any player that isn’t working hard and has any kind of poor attitude. I don’t care which player it is, if they are causing trouble they have to go.
Fans keep saying they players are the ones not trying or putting the work in. But the same players keep getting picked. Can’t be the same toxic environment that’s been mentioned for years. There are only a few players left from a few years ago.
{Ed025's Note - the trouble with that FG is that he wont have a team to pick from mate, there are quite a few players in this United side who are not pulling their weight and to just play a load of second teamers could well put you in the relegation spots, i do like the theory of what you propose but in reality its a non-starter..
01 Oct 2024 17:40:26
Tuchel would be my first choice ports.
But i don't get a choice.
I'm really not that bothered at all. I can only judge them as a fan after they come.
I've no red lines bar ole. I would have like de zerbi but you never know who could come in and do well.
01 Oct 2024 17:43:56
Ahmad are you really that naive or are you just in denial that you were wrong?
Seen Chelsea? EtH is in the 3rd season and i cannot see what he is trying. Arteta has a philosophy and you could see what he was trying. EtH? His philosophy? If it was EtH first season and us getting these results i am sure people would be patient but not when its the third season. By now the style should be ingrained in the players.
Bruno regresses, Rashford down the drain, Dalot backwards so on and so forth. No player has improved in these 3 years. Antony was his purchase and even if we forget his price, he should know the playing style. Where is he? Wake up from your slumber and face facts.
01 Oct 2024 17:55:57
What the manager or new manager needs to do is make a statement to the squad and sell Rashford. This is their Arteta/ Aubameyang moment. Best thing Arteta ever did for Arsenal.
01 Oct 2024 18:16:49
Ahmad
Key to your whole point was that you could see what Arteta was trying to do despite the mess. I doubt anyone can see what ETH is trying to do. As to Nagelsmann saying he wanted to take Germany to the World Cup, did you really expect him to say anything else?
We cannot keep blaming players, they have been mostly changed and ones brought in for ETH. Ones who he knows. I think the issue is they don’t believe what he is trying to do, what his philosophy, tactics are. Leadership is about installing that belief, SAF did it with bells on. It’s a key facet. ETH does not communicate with the fans or it seems with the players anywhere near well enough. He is not a leader and doesn’t look like ever will be one.
We have to get someone in quickly, someone who the players will believe. No good telling them they get paid millions so believe, they are human, need belief in what they are doing. Two and a quarter years and ETH has failed as a leader, that is totally unquestionable.
The next manager needs to bring the ethos the club are looking for. That is not Southgate, I would damn Ineos for even considering it, I would have grave doubts about the new part ownership on that. The main question if Southgate came, from day one, would be who replaces him in 2026.
The manager who makes this a success has seen the global icon it made of SAF. Klopp went to Liverpool and look at the impact of a leader. We need energy, direction, communication leadership, inspiration, everything ETH doesn’t have. Nagelsmann, has something, maybe could be tempted but you just wonder if there is still some dulling Glazer influence at play, because it’s hard to see how such new experts could support Southgate and or keep the reincarnation of Sexton in ETH. I am sure there are safe options like Allegri but if they want to really shake it up bring in Simeone. Tough to watch but his players run through walls for him or get sold. He is a leader. You will now be screaming for daring to mention Diego, but it needs a better dynamic approach. Change is needed and that doesn’t mean a load of new suits and clothes for ETH.
01 Oct 2024 18:28:22
It will be southgate.
01 Oct 2024 19:13:03
To be fair, Red Man, Simeone wouldn't be my idea of dynamic. You say yourself it would be a hard watch. Not ideal when the most common refrain on here, including my own feelings, is 'I just want to enjoy watching United again'.
01 Oct 2024 20:07:41
Nou
If they are going to look at Southgate then Simeone is a far better bet. Hopefully the new part owners can entice a progressive leader. If they truly care about the style of football then we will see that in the coach selection.
01 Oct 2024 20:15:15
Thanks for clearing up you don’t get a choice Ken. All this time I thought you had SJR’s ear. Glad that misunderstanding has been cleared up ?.
01 Oct 2024 20:47:32
Redman
I see what he is trying to do. Everyone wanted us to get away from being a counter attacking team with moments of individual brilliance. People criticize him for "where is the ajax football" and he when he said we can't play that way last year because we do not have the players for it and all of you had a dummy spit.
We are moving in the right direction in terms of upgrading the players and all this stuff about Zirksee, Deligt and pick another one this week being no good is just false. Many pundits are after his head and will jump on anything to further discredit him.
Are they best in class no but we can't afford best in class anymore. We either collectively improve by buying better players or blow it all on super stars. We know how that has worked out. Pogba, sancho, Di maria, zlatan, Cavani, ronaldo and I can keep going and SJR has said we will not do stuff like that anymore, period.
Its clear what eth is trying to do and we have had plenty of spells/ periods this season where you see it but our finishing. if you want to deny that, that's your view and not mine. Is RVN a bad coach as he was brought in to work with the attackers and so far we are not doing too well in that department. I just don't do oh he is good he is bad with a small sample case.
Until the spurs game even all the stats if you like them or not were saying we have improved in every area.
We are raw, new and far from polished or cohesive and no I am not deluded or Naive. Would I like to see it gel much faster absolutely. Am I upset with our results to date absolutely. When I say Bruno is struggling and not his biggest fan but the reality is whether I like him or not we need him on form to do well, same as rash.
4 of those starters have played a total of 3 or 4 games together in a new team with a bunch of players they don't know and it takes time. Fergie on record used to say he never like adding more than 3 new players as it was difficult to make it work when integrating too many new players.
It takes time seems to be taboo word and people immediately associate that with being an excuse. Fine if you want to look at it that way but reality sometimes sucks.
Its clear the players are struggling adapting to the change by the volume of mistakes all of them are making. This was one of the most sought after managers in Europe and suddenly he is rubbish.
We have been a decent team that has its moments for the last 10 years and stuck in our past glory days. Stop comparing you will not see it again in the pl and city is the last of it and that's going to change.
It will take time with this manager or the next one. Fergie served us a pile of really bad football for 5 years and whoever denies that is an absolute liar or was not watching us.
If you had social media and all these pundits back then he would have gotten sacked and never made it. You can deny it but finishing 13th his third or 4th year and for a while we were sitting in 16th or 17th spot.
Even during our hey day after losing that second final to Barcelona in cl we did not make it out the cl group stage the following year under Fergie. our group was basel, benfica and utelul galati lol. Have a look at the squad we had back then and our squad from last year.
So when people say eth is a bad manager given what happened last year in the cl its hyperbole exaggeration stuff. Onana cost us progression and yes eth bought him but he is not a bad goalie, he made some mistakes.
ETH overachieved in his first year imo. We had bad season with lots of injuries 2nd year and to some its an excuse but to me. poor start to season 3. Unfortunately most cannot get over or forgive last season and our start this season is enough for them to ask for a change.
I have no issues with some of the managers you mentioned but the fan base will never accept some their styles. Tuchel will drop some of peoples darling, Simeone will play defensive football in this league and another version of Conte with a twist. Allegri I have never really watched his teams so no idea but his second stint at Juve went pretty badly for him.
Its easy to throw names around but has anyone really spent time watching their teams. Some of them will just not be a good fit and it will be tribal unrest with this fan base.
They will come, Fail and go. When Inoes or Barrada are talking 2027/ 2028 pl challenge or winning they know exactly where we are and have eyes on so much stuff non of us are privy to. Getting on band wagon of wanting the manager sacked and then what?
On a brighter note Shaw has had another injury set back and out for another 2 months.
I have never changed my view, I said ask me after 10 games and at mid season. Its not my decision but will accept it either way and will not rant and moan about it every day here if he gets sacked.
01 Oct 2024 21:25:22
Ahmad
1) Do you think ETH has shown any leadership? Do you think he is a leader? If you do, please give examples.
2) Do you think ETH has communicated with the fans at all and sold his vision? Has his vision inspired the players? Do you know anyone at all who has been inspired with where ETH is taking us?
3) Has ETH shown any tactical acumen at all? Outside the FA Cup Final, which rumours suggest was driven by Wilcox.
4) Have there been any signs of organisation on the pitch, or of in game management?
5) Why after over two years are the players openly saying they don’t buy in to what they are being asked to do?
01 Oct 2024 21:29:17
Nice1 Ports.
01 Oct 2024 21:44:36
I'll come out of hiding and state I don't want eth to go, as the options are limited.
However, if/ when he does depart, my choice would be Amorim. If he is not available, for whatever his reasons, wait until he is.
They need to pick the right man to lead them towards that 27/ 28 title challenge, if that is not eth, identify who it is, and go get them.
As Ahmed has stated, this is not a club being run by amateurs anymore, they will make the tough calls when needed, to achieve their goals.
01 Oct 2024 22:15:24
Is the lack of a clear replacement sufficient reason to stick?
Oh, it was.
02 Oct 2024 00:10:28
Redman
1. I have no idea what you are talking about as leadership examples. You have to ask people who are dealing with him on a day to day basis and have first hand experience. unlike you I don't take it upon myself to label him as a good leader or bad leader. I run a pretty decent size organization and the people who are best placed to answer a question like that are my board and the people who work for me. Everyone else is entitled to an opinion but it really does not matter and they are just assuming things.
2. I have no idea ask the players. They all speak highly off him in public but that also needs to be taken with a grain of salt, what do you expect them to say. Even ones who have left like garner, Pellistri, speak highly off him. Our two wonder boys seems to be very fond of him and their words not mine talk about how he has really helped them grow as players. This is a guy who you think does not improve players. Are they all lying or window dressing things, I have no idea. btw Dalot was our player of the year last year. He is having some poor games being played out of position atm.
In terms of his communication skills he is not a natural English speaker and you can see he struggles with some of the words he uses to get his point across to the media. Is he a charming guy no idea but it matters none to me. We are not hiring them for being charming. Charlatans are very charming people and its a prerequisite to being good at their jobs.
3. Tactically I think he is excellent and anyone who has worked with him gushes about his tactical acumen. That's the one common thing that you hear. Unless you want to listen to failed managers/ pundits who suddenly are geniuses on TV and some have never even coached but they have to play the part.
Pep last year before the final said he is an exceptional coach. Take it with a grain of salt but that what he said. The idea that you actually believe jason wilcox had anything to do with how we set up for that FA cup final speaks volumes by how clouded you are mate lol. Does ETH strike you as a guy who will allow for that. One thing he does have plenty by the looks of it is certain principles and stubbornness, which can also make him a difficult person as ed002 has said.
Morescu at chelsea looked like a bull in a china shop with some of the things he was saying a few weeks ago but a few good results and now he is great coach. A bad run and he is back to being bad coach. Too small of a sample size.
4. This year definitely. Has it been consistent game after game NO. Its part of making changes, at some point it gels and gets ingrained into the players and the team as a unit and they don't have to think about it. Football players struggling to adapt to a new system and being asked to do things that they have not done in the past is understandable. Nunes has been with city for 18 months and according to pep still needs to learn their system, managing space ie pep talk lol but he has the luxury of not really using him. Phillips never got there and was moved on.
5. Which players are you referring to and if you think that is something new, hate to disappoint you. Every team in the league right now has players who don't necessarily agree or see eye to eye with their managers. The difference is all this stuff comes out like clock work when we are in crisis mode. Been like that for 10 years.
Btw the old forward coach has been talking about eth and players. Its an interesting read but take all of this stuff in the media with a massive grain of salt.
As I said football fans are a fickle bunch. Read today palace are looking at changing Glasner. This is the same guy who joined them late last year and pundits and fans were gushing about him given their late season form, playing on the front foot, going for it, being positive blah blah blah clique football words that gets thrown around. They lost Olise and some people will use that to defend him but surely losing one player cannot be used as an excuse, so is he a good manager or a bad manager. I have no idea and too small a sample size imo.
We had about 8-10 players out last year most of the year and that was seen as an excuse because we are Manchester United and it should not matter.
We have had a poor 12 months and not 3 years and most of it was a injury ravaged 2nd year. Given his first year we had very high expectations for year 2. for some fans and you being one of them it was a massive disappointment and you will not get over it. That's okay its a difference of opinion.
6 games into a new season, new ownership, new structure and bunch of new young players and our most expensive purchase has not even played a single game yet. It is too small of a sample size for me personally. I get it after watching Sunday many will have had enough.
I read Sherwood gushing about Van der Ven and taking a pop at ETH about choosing de ligt over Van der Ven, we are bordering on just ridiculous stuff now being said and written. Van der Ven went to spurs two summers ago. Would not surprise me one bit if some our fans start talking about it :) hook, line and sinker.
On a online forum one of our so called fans was complaining about why Hanibal is not getting any game time in the chat and how eth does not trust young players and has to go. go figure
Joking aside, Ineos need make statement and kill all this noise if they are planning on sticking with him or make the change and we move on. It is detrimental to the team, results, players and the manager to have this sort of public scrutiny.
02 Oct 2024 00:17:16
Again the only stats that count are goals for versus goals against, AKA wins!
The rest are just outliers and can be swung whatever way you want to support an argument.
02 Oct 2024 05:37:56
Tactically excellent? Bwahahaha! You are watching the right United yeah?
02 Oct 2024 08:28:16
Ahmad
Thank you appreciate the very long answer and time spent on it.
Leadership. Your point one and two answer is ask the people around him. Respectfully, leadership is far more than being in charge or being a manager, it is taking people on a journey, taking the club in this case the players and the fans with you. Ask the fans and 99% are not aware of the journey, just telling people it’s a process doesn’t pull everyone together. I read yesterday that six players were talking after the cup final and did not buy into or necessarily understand what ETH was trying to do. Note this was not because we are losing now, it was after we won the cup.
It sounds like you run a reasonable sized business, but respectfully I am not sure you grasp the Leadership principles. I had specific leadership training many years ago, if you haven’t already, may I respectfully recommend seeking it out. It helped me understand the difference between boss, manager and leader. ETH is no leader.