07 Sep 2024 07:55:06
Two cups, is that enough at United?
Ten Hag has used the two cups as a badge of honour and they are good to have, but is it enough? It reminded me of Ron Atkinsons era, our hopes grew on the cups as it did before we kicked a ball this season, yet it was to be Champions that we wanted then and that and Champions League success must be our aim now.
Big Ron had two FA Cup wins (and five successive top four league finishes) but the 86-87 season began poorly with three successive defeats before being dismissed as manager two days after a 4-1 exit at the hands of Southampton in the League Cup.
Winning cups isn't enough and ETH needs to stop looking backwards and waving two cups and realising cohesive displays and wins must now come. Interesting Southampton next for ETH and he must win that convincingly and then win games showing a pattern of play otherwise you have to think after the poor Liverpool display the end maybe nigh as it was for Big Ron.
07 Sep 2024 08:45:40
I'd rather a manager came, focused and played his first team in the league.
And during the cup games he played his second squad.
I personally do not care if we win another europa league or league cup
I'd rather we first be a consistent give in for top 4.
07 Sep 2024 09:06:54
Redman
ETH never said that's our only ambition. He said we have higher ambitions and rubs winning two cups into people face who are going after him in the media. I agree with you we have to perform a lot better but don't agree at all he must win convincingly at Southampton but a win is required. Have not seen Southampton play so no idea what they are like.
After we sacked Atkinson and we hired Fergie we finished 11th, 2nd, 13th, 8th, 6th, 2nd, with a sprinkle of a FA cup win in 90 that some believe saved Fergie his job.
It took Fergie 7 years to win the league with a generational group coming through the academy that were better than Garna and Mainoo. Don't get me wrong they are good young players but they are not giggs and scholes and hard for me to see another two like them but hope I am wrong.
He would have been sacked in this day and age with the volume of toxicity and noise on social media and who knows what then. Give it 10 league games and let's see where we are.
07 Sep 2024 09:39:44
backpass,
I don't agree on Europa league and FA Cup is special imo both are Big trophies to win and also gives you some optimism lol going into the next season given they are so late in the season. Europa also ensures automatic qualification for CL.
I do agree about resting as many first 11 players when you can in domestic cups but he seems to take all competitions very serious. Barnsley at home should allow us to rest some players unless you are trying to get them match fit.
07 Sep 2024 10:17:21
Ahmad
ETH is using two trophies as a stick to beat back the media yet whilst it’s good to have them he needs to realise two trophies are not enough and that was my point. I think Southampton and Palace are must win games if we are to make top four. We must see progression in the pattern of play.
When you see SJR head in hands and Schmeichels story about how upset SAF was, the waving of two trophies won’t last long.
See where we are at 10 games is one position but lose the next two and I can’t see him lasting much longer. Not when Tuchel is sat doing nothing (to my knowledge)
07 Sep 2024 10:43:38
I find it funny that a lot of the people who berate EtH are the same one's who were Mourinho's biggest supporters.
Yet when we step back and look at them there isn't a great deal of difference between the two.
Both won two cups, both repeatedly use/ used that as evidence that they have done well.
Both were/ are surly with the press and didn't/ don't come across great in the media.
Both play/ played with a inconsistent/ unattractive style of play.
Both stubborn about their tactics and insistent on having control.
Both disciplinarians.
Both preferred to sign former players.
Both have had falling outs with players in the squad.
Lots of parallels between them to be honest.
The main differences I see are that EtH has given more youth players a chance (and been successful/ consistent in giving them game time), and he is at least trying to play a more attacking style of play (even if it's not quite clicking) .
Other than that there probably isn't a great deal of difference between the two of them.
So I do find it amusing to see those posters who defended Jose, now berating EtH for the same things they defended Jose from ???.
07 Sep 2024 11:40:29
???shappy can you name anybody on here who didn't want Jose sacked in his 3rd year?
Everybody realised it was wrong and he had no hope.
Jose did not get most the players he wanted out or in the dame cannot be said of the bloke who is our manager now.
Daft compressions to make. Most on here have supported eth until the came to the same conclusion as they did with Jose.
You yourself thought ole should be kept and pushed and made dozens of essays defending him until you turned. Then the penny dropped with even you.
This manager fella is wrong for the club. He is not a man to be trusted with the head coach role. You will turn and say the same as you always do in the end.
07 Sep 2024 11:57:55
ETH is out of his depth. Always has been at United. He doesn't have an elite coaching academy (Ajax) behind him in a second rate league any more. His lack of flexibility and strategy has been found out. It will never, ever, change under him.
Supporters are motivated by great managers. I genuinely cannot remember a time that ETH has made me feel excited with his words or actions. If that resonates in the playing squad then his P45 cannot come soon enough.
07 Sep 2024 12:08:05
Shappy. Which former players did Mourinho sign? Matic is the obvious one, and Lukaku made three appearances under Mourinho before joining Everton. Unless there are more I’m forgetting, I don’t think it’s fair to say that Mourinho preferred to sign players that he’d already worked with.
07 Sep 2024 12:10:14
Shappy
Remind us who the club bought for Mourinho in his last transfer window and what the club have spent for ETh? I saw a list of over €700m bought for ETH and still we turn out disjointed rubbish. It has to stop now, Southampton is a must win, so is Palace and we must see a pattern. No more excuses.
07 Sep 2024 12:10:20
BrD.
I think he should get a few more games I think he might even get more than a few.
Ineos decided to keep him after they couldn't convince others to take the job. They don't want him but couldn't get who they want so they were stuck.
Evey business lives amd dies on their recruitment.
They don't want eth and to be honest I don't care who they want because I don't have to work with them or manage them.
But they need their man in whomever that is.
07 Sep 2024 12:50:48
I’m loving this. Three games in and the banter is ramping up beautifully. It’s going to be a great year.
However we should 100% not be resting any players at the moment regardless of the games. ETH and his supporters have been banging on about getting the team match fit and up to speed with playing style and they need it!
Otherwise the old “consistent lineup” excuse will be getting flogged to death.
Once the team is playing as they should and consistently, then they can have a rest. Poor loves.
07 Sep 2024 13:47:18
ETH has never said 2 cups was good enough, but it is at least better than the 0 cups that Arsenal have won.
ETH consistently says that he goes out to win every game.
One thing that is extremely important at United, for financial reasons if nothing else, is participation in one of th top 2 European trophies. If we're not going to get into the top 4 in the league then winning the FA Cup gets us into the Europa, and winning the Europa gets us into the ECL. The further we progress in each competition brings a financial reward.
The goals for the club are not set by ETH but by club management. ETH is there to fulfill their aspirations. SJR was clear that there was a lot to do, that we're hampered by PSR, and it would take more than one abbreviated summer window to fix the problems at the club. There is a clear path that they're following to give the manager the best chance of getting back to the top, but they surely know that 12 years+ of inept transfer and retention policy is still a hindrance to the club achieving the level of consistency required too challenge for the league.
We all agree that ETH has made some big mistakes, but we do not know the extent to which the previous management team was complicit. They should never have endorsed the purchases of Antony and Mount. Who even came up with the latter? . These were very big risks. But, on other side, we have to take into account the unattractiveness of Man Utd as a destination for top players given our poor recent history and the disrespect our management and ownership had justly earned for themselves.
ETH will not be given an indefinite amount of time. Performances will have to show a clear arc of improvement. Notwithstanding the negative results this season, there have been signs of improvement. There are 3 areas that I'm sure will be receiving intense work. 1. Conversion rate. 2. Closing out games 3. DM. Whatever good work we have been doing has been undone far too frequently by collapses in these areas. I still believe that the key to fixing all of these areas is a psychological.
07 Sep 2024 14:41:02
redman
I recommend that go transfermarkt and the numbers are there for you and just add them.
We Have spend a total net 478 million euros under ETH or approx 400 mill pounds. This is not bs numberi made up. You don't get to post outlandish numbers to suit our argument.
Its similar to lazy journos, why bother read their stuff that is baseless and poorly researched. If we had spent 700 mill as you say, the extra 230 would have landed us Neves, Branthwaite, Toney and Olise and we would probably contend the league title. It not just rounding up a million here or there mate.
The rest who make statements about not right, clueless would have probably said the same about Fergie finishing 13th in his 3rd season. whatever I say.
Whilst you are at it do the rest of top 6 and post the numbers. Then let's have a conversation about are we so outlandishly outspending the rest to fix what's needs fixing.
Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of academy players going for 20/ 30/ 40 mill having hardly kicked a ball for the first team and that itself tells you about the state of the club. We struggle to get that for many of first 13 players barring a few lol.
BRD
How is ajax doing with their elite coaching academy atm or since eth left if I may ask. Before you bring "up oh they sold lots of players" they have been doing that for 30 years in case you missed it.
The Dutch, Portugese, belgian, French league are a feeder league for the top leagues in Europe which is Italy, Spain. England, Germany. Only change recently is PSG who seem to be net buyer.
07 Sep 2024 14:44:14
INEOS are convinced they have the right man, which is a worry in itself but guess we've got to roll with it until they think otherwise. There's an awful lot of experience above him now, I'd like to think they know what they're talking about, just wish it was an easier watch.
07 Sep 2024 15:32:48
I still think this could be "the guy". But he certainly needs to show a much higher level this year. We are hopeful that ugarte is the missing link in midfield. That hoyland grows into the striker that he has shown glimpses of. That rashford either starts to get back to his best, or is moved to the bench for better players. That de ligt and yoro take our defense to another level. That luke shaw somehow miraculously stays fit for more than 25% of the season.
I don't think we have the squad yet to challenge, and with key injuries to ugarte, mainoo, hoylung, shaw we could be seriously lacking in these areas. But maybe ten hag is destined to be the guy before the guy. He will have seen us through a period of mass clear out, which we desperately needed. His legacy could be setting up the next manager for success, I still expect another 2 years of clear out and recruiting for this squad. Not sure EtH will make it that far.
07 Sep 2024 15:36:08
Keefy
I would play eriksen, amas, wheatley, antony, collyers and even our reserve goalie vs barnsley. Guys like Mainoo, dalot, martinez need a rest the rest of these guys need some game time.
I agree it will be a year full of debate, disagreement and surprises:) never a dull day as a united supporter. i am optimistic as usual:) lost a bundle on us vs pool. bet win and the draw and did not see us losing.
07 Sep 2024 16:12:52
Ahmad a net 480m? Is o e way of looking at a figure but how much has the outlay on transfer fees been?
That's of course before all the various fees add ons and taxes are counted in.
If the 480m is the numbers after sales? (and I'm not sure if that's what your saying) then he has spent what redman said.
07 Sep 2024 19:16:17
FA cup gives some optimism if you finish in the top 3 imo. Not 8th.
The fact is because it was City, he kept his job. If it was anyone barring City, Arsenal or Liverpool in the final he would have been sacked because we would have been expected to win. Beating anyone of them 3 in the final saved his job and it’s totally wrong. He should have gone no matter what.
If you don’t believe me, work it out for yourself. He was due to be sacked after the FA cup final there was noise around his sacking a couple of days before, now imagine we were playing Coventry in the final. The noise would still be there and he would still have been expected to win, but because it was City they kept him.
It’s a shambles how they worked it out.
07 Sep 2024 20:08:10
Liverpool fan here.
Two cups in two years is not to be sniffed at. However, the quality of football and clear lack of identity under Ten Hag is not something united fans should accept imo.
07 Sep 2024 20:28:26
Good posts Shaw and DB.
07 Sep 2024 21:16:03
2 cups is not enough if you want to judge the last 2 seasons on the fact he won the cups alone your suggesting we judge 2 full seasons on 12 games.
Each cup run was 6 games which means your suggesting as long as ten hag wins 1 game every 2 months he should be safe.
07 Sep 2024 23:11:14
You enter 4 comps if your in Europe. Winning any is a good thing but does not always mean you have had a good season or are a particularly good team. They are considered 2nd rate prizes nowadays. Not so much the EL but the domestic comps by many, maybe even most. That's not to belittle winning them it's just the way the epl and cl are now the elite comps. Followed by the EL.
We want to be back competing at the top table ASAP.
07 Sep 2024 23:53:49
And whilst the cups are good to win they are essentially luck of the draw. Yes you have to win the games but they not at the same level as the league or CL.
In my very humble and uneducated opinion.
08 Sep 2024 07:34:35
Ahmad
You answered your own question. Fact remains ETH had one good season (results wise) simply because Rashford had an outlier season. Rashford’s form masked ETH’s shortcomings.
A further reason Ajax collapsed (certainly wasn’t ETH leaving) was the loss of Overmars (regardless of reasons), who at time was highly regarded as a DoF.
I really don’t know why people defend ETH beyond the we can’t keep turning managers over argument - which is nothing to do with ETH’s qualities. Just means he’s keeping it by default. Though Tuchel turning job down is football’s worst secret.
ETH has one thing going for him. Luck in Cup draws. He rarely gets a tough draw. So if he can keep out of his own way we may scramble another Caracow Cup.
Yay.
08 Sep 2024 07:35:11
Ahmad
I read the list of players bought and it was over EUR700M. You quote net after sales but fact is we have added EUR700m worth to the team. Net makes it sound less but add €700m of players and yet we still have a poor start to the season. It totally must improve quickly now.
08 Sep 2024 08:39:42
Shappy
Wonder why you haven’t done the comparison of what has been bought for ETH and Mourinho’s final transfer window?
08 Sep 2024 09:22:39
Some just don't understand redman.
08 Sep 2024 10:01:54
redman
If you want to go by that principle here is the spend levels from summer of 2022 till past summer.
1. United Spend 640 Mill
2. Arsenal 530 mill
3, City 435 mill
4. Spurs 600 mill
5. Liverpool 360 mill
6. Newcastle 406 mill
7. Villa 380 mill
8. Chelsea 1.32 bill
We finished 6th in 2021/ 2022 season on 58 points, city winning it on 93 points by a point from Liverpool. We were 13 points off 4th place which was spurs and 11 points off arsenal who were 5th, Chelsea 3rd on 74 points. Chelsea spend is just wild given where they were.
This is our first summer under new recruitment and leadership team and we have played 3 games.
If you exclude this past summer, arsenal, city actually outspend us in eth first 2 years and Liverpool were close to our spend levels. The numbers show a gap when you add this past summer given we spend again to buy 5 players and those 3 did not spend much this past window. Judge the spend and progression end of this season when these players actually play a whole year and not after 3 games.
Finally everyone is in a different place in terms of rebuilding and structure around their manager and quality of recruitment. Some like city just kept adding to what was already a great team and Liverpool making wholesale changes to their midfield and front line by replacing all the players besides salah.
The Top 3 have had managers in place for much longer who shaped their squads starting much earlier. Slot has inherited a Klop squad and that went through a complete rebuild and hence only bought chiesa for nothing and the goalie who is really good imo but not in their current squad.
08 Sep 2024 12:53:02
Ahmad
Spent the most, now £640m up from what you said before. I read a list with over €700M. finished 8th, started this season badly. He must improve quickly. The rest of the post looks like trying to find what aboutery for ETH.
Shappy
Still waiting….
08 Sep 2024 13:26:42
Some just don't agree with you and Redman Ken ?.
08 Sep 2024 14:48:47
Angel we spent more than 480m he is talking nonsense. You can't dispute transfer fees they are a matter of fact not opinion but I appreciate your input.
It's not an opinion it's just a small matter of basic affing numbers together.
United have outspent City comfortably o er the past 5 or 6 seasons.
08 Sep 2024 15:16:10
I'm with dodgy on this.
The man stays, he is the man.
I will not change my mind.
08 Sep 2024 19:29:25
I'm only joking ken, I know the craic. A lot of money spent. But the figures are completely ridiculous. We did the majority of that spending under the stewardship of the glazers. And by that metric alone, the fees were incredibly over priced, and poor signings were made too.
I do not put that on the manager alone.
09 Sep 2024 06:24:27
Angel
The manager isn’t solely responsible for the signings however when we are buying ex Ajax players like Antony for £85m he has to have had a massive influence. The manager has yet to get a tune of any sort out of a team which has €700m injected into it, that must change.
09 Sep 2024 13:18:50
Redman
640 euros gross and we have sold about 160 mill.
Tumble
use a calculator a bit of google search if it helps you but those are the numbers.
The net is the real number as quite a bit of it is replacing players who are gone either at the end of their contracts or replacing players we sold. Our bench still looks weak when we have a few injuries. we had Maguire, Evans, collyers and eriksen as bench as our only options for the midfield or defense vs Liverpool is not exactly wow.
If it suits the eth out brigade use whatever numbers your heart pleases to make an argument. why not just go with a billion. its more impactful.
09 Sep 2024 16:09:46
Ahmad you are not dumb when it comes to business.
The outlay on players has been circa 700m
The number after sales of players does not just come off the top of that number. The accounting will not be aligned and the accounts do not work that way.
Redman is correct during his tenure we have spent in excess of 700m on players plus all the various additional costs that go with that.
It's not an opinion it's a matter of fact.
How much of the 160m in income from players sales is profit? Not the full 160m that's for sure. That's why you can't simply deduct 1 from the other.
Google simple accounting and you'll understand.
09 Sep 2024 20:38:59
Tumble
Who was talking about profitability. Read the original post. Every teams transfer spend gets reported in terms what's out there in terms of cost and add ons. Other cost is not public unless you go look for it in so many different places.
Redman has decided to come with his own version of things.
If we are talking about agent fees here in top 5 in 2023
1. Chelsea 75 mill pounds
2. City 60 mill
3. United 34 mill
4. Liverpool 32 mill
5. Arsenal 26/ 27 mill
Its okay if you don't want the manager but stop making it like he is some drunk sailor at port. He inherited a terrible team, poor structure, culture, etc etc that needs to get fixed and rebuild. We started way behind everyone else and not outlandishly outspending them to catch up like some want to make it out to be.
10 Sep 2024 06:55:19
Come back, i’ll bite your legs off!
10 Sep 2024 13:09:14
Ahmad you are the one muddying the waters with net spend figs.
Outlay under eth is 700m on transfer fees.
No changing that no. No exaggerating it no diluting it that's the no within reason.