26 Aug 2024 12:13:15
Are we the only big club that plays without a centre forward?
26 Aug 2024 12:44:52
Have been saying Ken that we need another striker, someone that is proven in the prem, the only one clearly available is Toney but we definitely need one.
26 Aug 2024 13:23:10
Arsenal?
26 Aug 2024 13:24:38
But we don't use the 2 we have. Rasmus on bench for last 3 games lad season and Zirkzee this.
26 Aug 2024 14:35:31
One is injured, the other went to the Euros injured and didn’t kick a ball in pre season.
26 Aug 2024 15:15:59
Rasmus was available last 3 games last season but on the bench we have not played with a striker in our last 6 matches which helps our defence because Bruno is not missing in action and it is harder to play through us. So does he want to play with a striker at all?
26 Aug 2024 16:36:08
Good shout angel but they do play havertz as a cf. He plays back to goal at times and links up play. We don't play Bruno or mount like that. No real focal point up front Haverthwaite plays a very different role. He is playing cf despite not being a natural one.
26 Aug 2024 16:39:36
But havertz is and has never been a CF. I watch them and see him as a false 9, albeit can push on. But he usually drops.
It works. They scored a lot of goals last season.
26 Aug 2024 16:45:25
Liverpool did pretty well when Firminio was their "striker", a player who had been a midfielder for most of his career prior joining Liverpool.
He was a false 9, and his off the ball work and link up play helped Salah and Mane score bucket loads.
Arsenal play with Havertz as their "striker", a player who isn't really a striker either.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see Chelsea play Nkunku as a striker at times, and City have used Bernardo Silva and Foden as false 9's on occasion.
It's certainly a tactic that other top clubs have used to varying degrees.
Zirkzee is also more of a false 9 than a traditional striker.
Given that Højlund is our only traditional striker, and that he is still young and learning his trade, I can see us being a side that plays with a false 9 more often than not this season, with Højlund maybe coming on later in games as an impact sub to offer something different to maybe change the game.
It's also a tactic that EtH used fairly regularly with Ajax with him using Tadic as his striker, especially in the bigger games.
Given that the majority of our wide players (Rashford, Garnacho, Antony and even Amad to a lesser extent) are players who look to score themselves rather than create chances then it makes sense to have a goal creating focal point rather than a goalscoring striker.
We lack creative wingers, as seen by Højlund's lack of service last season. He had one of the best conversion rates of any striker in the league last year, but was in the bottom half of strikers for the number of chances he got.
As we are unable to go out and buy a couple of chances creating wingers this summer then maybe it makes sense to play a "striker" who supports the wingers as we don't have the wingers to support the striker.
26 Aug 2024 16:54:39
So our season rests on rash having a 1 in 4 good season this next year? Excellent.
26 Aug 2024 16:57:53
Yes angel good manager arsenal have.
Haverthwaite plays up front for them as a striker as per arteta.
Plays the role well and as you say can drop deep too when needed.
26 Aug 2024 17:04:11
Goal scoring wingers we have is it shappy? Really? I'm not sure that's true. I think hasland scored more on Sunday than Antony and ahmad did last season as a whole.
Garnacho did he get 7 league goals last season?
Arsenal play haveryz as a cf as did klopp play firminho there. They may not have been cfs but its the position they played. Linking play back to goal mount or Bruno don't do that.
26 Aug 2024 18:26:33
Ken, by "goalscoring wingers" I mean wingers who will naturally look to shoot rather than pass the ball in the final third.
Key passes are passes that lead to a shot.
Last season:
Antony 1.8 shots per game, 0.7 key passes.
Rashford 1.9 shots per game, 0.8 key passes.
Garnacho 2.8 shots per game, 1.3 key passes.
Amad 1.1 shots per game, 1.1 key passes (on a much smaller sample size) .
As you can see they are all at least twice as likely to shoot than they are to try and create for someone else.
To put that into context Højlund managed 1.1 shots per game and 0.9 key passes.
Our starting striker was having less shots than all our wingers, while also managing more key passes than both Rashford and Antony.
Bruno and Mount have rotated as the CF and Bruno played as the CF in those final few games last season including the FA cup final. It's also the role Zirkzee is most likely to play.
Our wingers are the type of wingers that will always get more goals than assists, ergo they are goalscoring wingers. They just aren't particularly prolific at it.
26 Aug 2024 18:27:09
I'm not against a false 9 system by any means. Our way of playing it works in as far as we look harder to breakdown and don't get played through as easily.
But offensively it looks very disjointed and we have no focal point like a havertz or firminho. Is zirkzee that man? I hope so.
26 Aug 2024 19:03:21
At the risk of being contentious, I would drop Bruno for Zirkzee and have Zirkzee play as a false 9. Can't see it happening though.
26 Aug 2024 19:57:09
Haha ajh see my post on the rumour page. You are not alone.
26 Aug 2024 20:36:28
Shappy
You say we lack Creative wingers, I would say that we have them, but tactically they are not allowed or encouraged to get past full backs or cross balls, they have had to adhere to tactics, retaining the ball backwards and pass inside. We lack a centre forward but you mention our wingers shoot, well ETH plays inverted wingers to cut inside.
26 Aug 2024 21:02:44
Shappy, to put it more simply, we have the type of wingers that are sh1t wingers. Hopefully some of our younger guys can develop. I have given up hope for the older ones, now just sitting waiting for contracts to end.
27 Aug 2024 09:22:05
redman
you have first hand knowledge they are told to not go past fullbacks and cross. its a bit of interesting statement. When there are 2/ 3 guys defending of course you recirculate, everybody does. our delivery to the wings is too slow and too clumsy/ rusty atm. Not a lot of great opportunities atm where they don't take on full backs.
27 Aug 2024 10:45:10
Red Man, like you I don't know what the tactics the manager is telling the players.
But I do know that over the past 7 years Rashford has always scored more goals than he has created assists. He has always taken more shots than he has played key passes.
So either that is just his natural game, or LvG, Jose, Ole, Ralf and Erik have all coached him the same way and asked him to play the same way.
I'd expect it's fair more likely that it's just his natural instinct. When he has the ball in the final third he instinctively looks for how he can shoot rather than who he can pass to for the best scoring opportunity.
Antony it's a little harder to tell as in Europe he's only really been coached by EtH so you'd imagine that he's been asked to play a certain way. Which might explain why he has also always had more shots than key passes across his time at both United and Ajax. Although he also has more goals than assists for Sao Paulo and in his appearances for Brazil at various levels.
He is probably one of the most "head down" wingers I have seen in the EPL. Which again suggests that he isn't looking to see who he can pass to, but is just focusing on getting into a shooting position.
Amad and Garnacho it's much harder to tell as they haven't got much experience, they also seem to be fairly focused on scoring (as is fairly typical for young forwards), but they do seem slightly more mouldable and could be coached to be more creative. Last season I said on here numerous times that I thought Garnacho benefitted from playing on the right as he played with his head up more and was less focused on getting into a shooting position. He was a more rounded threat from the right than the left (where he tended to be overly focused on cutting in on to his right foot and shooting) .
Potentially with Amad and Garnacho we could coach them to be more creative, although it does appear that getting into shooting positions is their natural game right now (especially Garnacho) .
With Garnacho idolising Cristiano Ronaldo and openly saying he tries to model his style on his heros game, it's hardly surprising that he is overly focused on scoring at this point in his career.
Given that our wide players give the ball away the most of any players in our team I doubt they being overly constrained by "possession" tactics.
Personally I'd say the reason that they often end up passing the ball backwards or making the safe pass isn't because it's what the manager has told them, but because they were solely focused on trying to get into a scoring position themselves and only when it was totally cut off did they lift their head up to find a pass, by which point the only pass on is a safe backwards pass. Yet if they were looking to create chances and played with their head up then there was numerous opportunities to make a dangerous and creative pass to someone in a better scoring position than themselves.
But that's not their natural game, they only look to pass when they have no opportunity to shoot themselves. By which time others who were in good scoring positions have now been marked or had the passing lane closed off, with the opposition back in their defensive shape.
27 Aug 2024 10:58:30
Dodgy, I'm not saying they are sh1t, nor am I saying they are great.
Just that in terms of their natural playing style/ instincts is to look to shoot.
They are wide forwards more than wingers, they play on the side of their weaker foot, they aren't looking to stay wide and stretch play, but to cut in onto their stronger foot and shoot.
Historically there have been great players who play like that and awful players who play like that.
No one used to complain that Cristiano Ronaldo didn't get enough assists or that he didn't cross the ball enough. Because he was world class at cutting in and scoring.
If you had a prime Ronaldo you wouldn't have asked him to play on the right, stay wide and whip in crosses. That would have been a waste of his best skills.
Likewise, if Rashford or Garnacho play best when cutting in and shooting then why would you try and get them to play a different way against their natural game.
You get the best out of your players by getting as many of them as possible to play to their strengths/ natural abilities.
Maybe signing Zirkzee and looking to play with a false 9 is the best way to get the most out of the players we have.
Certainly playing with a more traditional striker in Højlund didn't help the team score the number of goals we needed to, despite Højlund having one to the best chance conversation rates in Europe, let alone the league.
Every forward line needs at least one facilitator, if not two ideally. If you have three players who are all focused on scoring the goals and not creating them then you are playing with three individuals in the final third with no one to support them.
Do you think RvN would have scored as many goals as he did with Ronaldo and Rashford playing with him instead of Beckham and Giggs?
Likewise do you think Ronaldo would have scored as many goals as he did for us with Rooney, Tevez or Berbabtov looking to feed him as many chances as he got?
Rashford, Højlund and Garnacho didn't work as a front three last season despite being our best three on paper as all are natural goal scorers (shooters over passers) .
We need to replace at least one if not two of them with players who will look to create/ facilitate chances for their teammates.
Zirkzee is an obvious option, Amad could possibly be another, or playing one of Mount or Bruno in the front three.