21 Jul 2022 19:09:12
Regardless who we sign we have at last finally shifted some of our deadwood:
Pogba - world class talent but average at best in a United shirt. Reportedly on half the money at Juve that United offered him. Real / Barcelona / PSG not interested in him. Disappointed we couldn't have sold him when clear he'd see out his contract. Would've snapped someone's hand off if they'd bid over £20m.
Lingard - why he came back from West Ham I'll never know. Surely there was a deal to be done there too. Another £10m down the drain?
Matic - a likeable old pro whose legs have clearly gone. Goes with my blessing unlike the above two who thought they were bigger than the club IMO.
Mata - the nicest guy in football and would prefer him to stay on perhaps in any coaching capacity but never going to get game time. Was one of the premier league's best 10s when we signed him and successive managers wasted his talents for me : (
Pereira - £10m was a nice unexpected bonus for someone who was never even squad level player.
Still further axe-wielding to be done but at least we have made a start. Bailly, Jones and Tuanzebe all surplus to requirements too and surely destined for a team who'll take players made of glass?
I suspect given our relative high wages we will be stuck with those 3 or have to part pay their wages at least. Ten Hag apparently wants a smaller squad to work with so other than De Jong I don't see anyone else coming in. If that falls through I think Ten Hag would look to see if he could mould someone into a role he sees pivotal.
Even if Ronaldo goes I don't see him being replaced. Perhaps Sulky chops Martial will finally give his Ballon d'Or clause a run for its money? I'd be eating my hat if so as many others would!
21 Jul 2022 19:59:18
The players you've listed and the ones that are probably available are not the players teams are rushing to buy. I suspect it will be later on in the window when we see Bailey, Tuanzebe, Telles etc leave.
I wouldn't be worrying about the ones that left.
21 Jul 2022 20:24:51
Crazy thing is none of those listed that have left really offered anything last year so lots of salary space saved without any hit to first team.
21 Jul 2022 21:28:50
Not against letting Bailly stay and let him leave on free next year.
His pre-season has been pretty good and has been out best defender in pre-season.
22 Jul 2022 07:25:33
Why would you let him leave on a free next year?
22 Jul 2022 08:38:17
Sorry Rohan, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If he’s played well in pre season then surely that puts him in the shop window so as we can recoup some money for him.
{Ed014's Note - defo, a tenner is better than nothing
22 Jul 2022 08:43:59
Pogba and Lingard leaving I think is going to have a real positive impact on the squad and that alone I think will increase performance and attitude of other players. 2 big characters and influences but not professional for an elite club IMO.
I have made my feelings very clear on Martial, however he has started well in pre season, scored goals, working hard, looks happy and if we can create a positive and professional environment and players respond to it then maybe the likes of Martial can start to show their talent and I’d be delighted to hold my hands up and acknowledge him.
22 Jul 2022 08:47:20
I think we should keep Bailly this season and pay him his 4m wages to keep the club doctors and physios busy. I'd hate think that the medical staff are getting paid for do nothing this season.
22 Jul 2022 09:12:41
Agree ports. Nobody been more vocal on martial than me over the years. Imo the guy had been a disgrace.
Bit I have to be honest as a player or person there is no way in this world I could have played for responded to or be motivated by ole wall and RR.
Nobody could work for or indeed did work for either of them.
Therefore everybody gets a new slate.
This 2 dopes are 2 of the worst managers in the clubs history and no player excelled under them.
Most deteriorated under them.
Pogba got worse
Awb went from good prospect to poor.
Lindelof got worse
Maguire looks worse then when at Leicester.
Bruno got worse the longer he was here.
Sancho never got started under them.
Martial likewise
Fred would be rubbish under fergie he doesn't count.
Shaw is more up and down than a yo yo
Rashford got worse the longer they were there.
22 Jul 2022 09:26:28
Can't argue with much of that Ken. Aside from Fred, I'm off the keep camp. I don't think there's been a more divisive player at the club for yonks! At this point I don't even know if he can play or not, or if having a good engine is enough. Still not even sure what his position is - we play him differently to his national team and previous club. Even RR said he was one of several players who had been pigeon-holed into the defensive midfield role when he shouldn't be, yet played him there himself. He is an enigma!
22 Jul 2022 09:44:40
I thought Bailly's contract was up in 2023 that's why I mentioned for free. But he has a contract till 2024 with 1 year extension option.
As per transfermarket he had 1 injury last year and that wasn't long.
You have to take it as a fact that Bailly run across the pool midfield which was their best midfield to create a big chance of which we scored. He had Telles as his fellow CB who can't defend for his life.
You can only judge them whenever they play and he has played really well whenever he's being played.
Do you think Lindelof has performed better than Bailly?
With the huge amount of games we'd have Martinez, Maguire and Lindelof I assume would be available for most of the season. Varane is an injury waiting to happen and Bailly is somewhat similar to Varane as per history. Jones will move to MLS to live the easy life and Tuanzebe wasn't included in the tour so looks like he is off too.
5 CB going in such a difficult season with question marks over Varane and Martinez will need time to settle in seems smart to me.
Unlike Ole and Ralf, if ETH rotates and plays Bailly for a few games I think the dressing room problem of Bailly doesn't start ahead of Lindelof or Maguire sentiment will go away.
Let's be fair Maguire was pants last season and he could make 3 mistakes in a game and not be dropped and Bailly makes one and he doesn't start ever again.
22 Jul 2022 11:17:55
Fred is my favourite player.
22 Jul 2022 12:46:14
Ken, Fred is a Brazil International who starts for them, yet, you seem to think he's a Subday league player. He's been played in a defensive roll by our previous managers and he clearly isn't a defensive midfielder, just like Ddg isn't a centre forward!
I think the problem is not Fred but mctominay, and yet, he seems to escape your critical eyes.
I hope and know Fred will do well under ETH, but even when he performs well (and he was arguably our best player last year), you'll still criticise him.
22 Jul 2022 12:36:05
AJH, at first I thought Fred was George Weah's brother he was soooooo bad.
Now, I like his industry and application but not convinced about his technical ability.
But if ETH can get a good tune out of him then I'll hold my hands high and claim ETH as the messiah.
22 Jul 2022 14:00:50
Aaa is rashford an intl
Is martial
Is mctom?
But to your critical eye they are all rubbish.
Fred imo is a very poor player for epl level midfield.
If he plays well and makes a positive contribution I won't be on his back same as another player I don't like in martial.
Fred has a good attitude but can't pass the ball well imo.
22 Jul 2022 19:09:03
I appreciate there is a fair bit of 'everyone was crap under Ole' in the above but just a gentle reminder we did finish 2nd in the league under him. Or does finishing 2nd not count as any sort of achievement unless you're called Liverpool these days?
Of course I appreciate Ole was never a top level premier league manager and shouldn't have been given interim job etc. I think a lot of players many of us have written off though may well come good now we have a manager who is potentially world class. Have stated previously that regardless who else joins us this summer United have already made the signing of the summer in appointing Ten Hag as manager.
22 Jul 2022 20:23:41
I think so halesini and I hope so even the ones I've grown to dislike such as Shaw and martial.
I like Fred but don't rate him.
22 Jul 2022 22:42:14
Ken a lot of the players are not good enough. I've been saying that and wanting top class players to be brought in. Rice would've transformed the team beyond recognition. But the owners lack the desire, ambition or funds, so while City and Liverpool are buying the top two strikers around (ps. Nunez scored 4 goals for Liverpool yesterday and you don't think he'll match Mané), we're nowhere near good enough and we've had a mediocre window at best.
I said few days ago, if we don't buy top quality (and it doesn't look like we will), then 6th place will be as good as we can do. And I'm not even sure 6th place is attainable. We're West Ham standard as it stands. Sorry to blow the bubble, but we'll see by Christmas that we needed to spend huge amounts on top top players in order to improve the team.
It is not going to happen as the owners have no money and they set a budget akin to Aston Villa! That's where we are at present, so while I think ETH and the coaching staff are top notch, they can't perform miracles and I'm afraid, we'll not be competing for anything.
22 Jul 2022 23:26:41
I can’t be as critical of Solskjaer as Ken, although I get his annoyance with it. But I do believe in right manager, right time. I actually liked LVG and felt he deserved more time but you can’t argue appointing Mourinho. Proven winner. But for me, in hindsight, wrong time. I’d have appointed him after SAF. He had the arrogance to step in and not worry about SAF’s legacy. I feel Solskjaer was right after Mourinho to bring back the feel good factor, which he did when we finished 2nd. But we should have looked elsewhere after that but I get why the club gave him the chance.
What amazes me now is reading “experts” criticising ETH rules. This is exactly what this lot need. I do think they are good enough, but I think they need a standard to work at which we haven’t had for so long and we’ve let players dictate the standards such as Pogba and Lingard.
I don’t like the running of this club. Bayern and Ajax IMO have it spot on, football people running the football. But. currently it seems they are letting ETH run things and he is a football man and if they continue to support him I think we are closer to challenging then not, even with this crop of players.
23 Jul 2022 01:03:33
How we appointed Moyes after Fergie remains one of our most bonkers decisions. Although it ultimately ended in failure when we later did appoint him I agree Mourinho looked tailor-made to succeed Fergie.
23 Jul 2022 09:59:58
AAA
I am with you, there seems to be some very favourable views through rose tinted glasses. I am concerned about goal scoring, if Martial is the main striker for the season then we are in trouble.
Lots of talk about how good a coach ETH is, yet we should be a little cautious. Undoubtedly knows what he is doing, but his experience is the Dutch league and he has brought in Ajax players, his comfort zone. That worries me a little. I see five teams with stronger spines than ours, I think we still are mixing and matching in the CM position and still do not have any fearsome goal scoring forward up front. Our spine is not strong. At the moment I think we are heading for sixth, maybe fifth if Arsenal do an Arsenal
I don’t go by meaningless friendlies pre season, after all didn't Martial score a worldie against European Champions Real Madrid and go on to have a poor season?
We need two significant players, CM and CF, the manager needs to step out of his Dutch comfort zone if we are to get top four even.
Not sure why there is any argument, Moyes was the disaster I said on here it would be, so was Ole. The decision makers at the club have been shocking all the way through. Comfort zone of SAF winning without spending big to emotional nonsense of Ole. It’s done now but Ole and Moyes tarnished the club, yet it was the decision makers who should be in stocks outside the club with barrels of rotten tomatoes to throw.
23 Jul 2022 10:46:25
Redman explain to me why a supporter should be cautious in their optimism?
{Ed014's Note - what’s your optimism based on? The new manager pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Players like Martinez and Malacia being worldies.
Yes there’s reason to be optimistic but some on here think you’re going to be smashing it! ?♂️
So cautious optimism means you’re simply not kidding yourself.
10 games in 30pts on the board, then you’re talking a whole different level of optimism.
23 Jul 2022 11:19:02
When we win in a preaseason match, its just a friendly, if Martial scores every match, its just a preaseason!
If Nunez scores, 2 goals from clear mistakes, 1 fron a penalty, which Salah won't give him in official matches.
I mean, I know we are not at their level, but Jesus, stop diminishing every single win we make, be it on a team level or at personal.
Wasnt Martial capable of scoring 15+ goals? Or Rashford? I do not like either, because of their attitude past 2 seasons, but they did show earlier that they can score. let's see what they are capable of under the right coach.
AAA deal with it already, Rice won't come this season for sure, maybe even never. He is too expensive, and he even isn't for sale. You don't have to mention him in almost every post u make. We all (or most of us) want him, but he ain't coming.
I am certain that we will do much better this season, just because of ETH and clearing the squad of players such as Pogba and Lingard.
Any signing on top of that is just a bonus, and we made 3 already, and we will probably add some more, so stop with all the whining, please!
23 Jul 2022 11:22:23
Redman, nobody thinks our squad is strong enough to win the league I don't see anybody making an argument for otherwise. Do you see anybody making that argument?
Do you think the players should be cautious in offering their full support and belief in ETH?
Why do you think fans should be cautious in offering their support and belief?
My view is that all players and all fans should I feel their full support to eth and his staff until like ole or moyes they prove to be out of their depth and doomed to failure.
All players get a clean slate for me until they prove to be a failure under the new manager.
He wants to keep trying to convince fjd. If he agrees we become top spenders yet again but this time on what the manager wants.
If you want to wait and see before you support then that is your perogative and choice.
I think it's more important for you to be proven right than it is for the team to be successful.
Deep down I feel you don't want united to be successful under this ownership because it will give you something to complain about.
That is the way you come across to me and others.
You don't want to throw your support and belief behind the team in case you are proven wrong.
What do you want from the team this season?
To you want to see a better style of play?
Do you want more discipline and teamwork?
Do you want to see more effort and a plan?
Do you want to see them try to compete?
If you want to step back and not offer full support until you are proven wrong or right then that's OK. It seems an odd way to be to me.
I 100% honestly belive if and when united are successful again under this ownership you won't be pleased or at best will be cheering through gritted teeth.
If you don't have hope you have nothing and might as well give up.
23 Jul 2022 11:35:46
Ed014, caution before you offer support?
That's not for me.
Who cares if your wrong? That's what support is. It's a leap of faith.
Please point out the supporters who think we are going to smash it. Who said that on here. Don't you get into the hyperbole. Banter or just lies?
Nobody on here think we will win the league nobody thinks we are going to jump that far.
But I don't see any point in being caution to offer support until the manager has proven to be doomed to failure.
Anything is better than the 2 muppets we had last year.
3 signings so far I hope will do well I'd they don't then they don't but no need to be cautious in hoping they do.
It's more important for people on here to be proven right than to take a leap of faith.
Some don't want the club to win because they don't want the owners to be successful.
If any fan is more concerned with looking silly for having optimism then it's a poor look out.
Year 1 objectives for me are to enjoy watching my team
That they have a plan.
That they are well drilled and organised.
That they try to compete for 90 mins in every game.
Winning the league is not on the agenda but too be cautious to offer support in case your let down is nonsense.
I'm curious to know which supporters have said we are contenders and going to smash it.
{Ed014's Note - every year since Fergie left someone has predicted big things, that’s the way it is on here.
Last year was the best squad you’d had for god knows how long, Martial is now the new big thing etc etc.
There’s nowt wrong in supporting your team and wanting better there just needs to be some sense to it.
Personally I don’t care if you or anyone else predicts that the same crap players from last year with a few additions and a new manager are going to lay waste to the world.
It’s each to there own but try and allow others to have a different thought process than you mate.
23 Jul 2022 11:36:27
I'd say that's your best post ever on here trololo.
23 Jul 2022 11:40:01
Aaa rice doesn't want to come to united and is not for sale.
How much time would you like to put into that transfer potential?
You don't want them to chase a player the manager wants that is for sale but you want them to go on a fruitless chase on a player that does not want to come to united and is not for sale.
But again for you it's more important for the club to do what you want than it's is for them to do what the manager wants.
Double standards and hypocrisy at it's best.
23 Jul 2022 12:52:06
Ed0014 everybody is allowed their point of view but debate is countering that. Its the objective of discussion.
I'm asking valid questions I believe as to why someone would be cautious of offering full support before an event.
If its a fear of disappointment or being wrong then they are following the wrong game as you'll never be right or successful all the time.
I'm not telling people they are wrong I'm looking to change opinion by asking probing questions and countering their argument with mine.
It's popular at the moment to have digs at the club and rightly so after last 10 years but this is a new manager with new ideas give the guy a chance give him unconditional support at the outset if it proves to be unwarranted then withdraw the support for him but at least try to be positive from the outset. If it all goes pear shaped again then that's the time to not be positive.
I've no idea if eth will bring success back in time. But it's the hand we as fans have been dealt. Support him until he proves he can't do it is imo what the fans should do.
{Ed014's Note - “you’ve no idea if ETH will come good” then like others, your optimism is tempered with caution mate because you except there could be a different outcome.
You support your club as does everyone else on here but your optimism isn’t without caution.
Does that mean you don’t support the team or will be behind them, no it doesn’t, no more than Redman won’t be, you talk of him wanting the owners to fail, you wanted Ole to fail which he duly obliged.
Why a need to change an opinion, has anyone on here tried to change yours and would you entertain them if they did. I’m thinking NO.
23 Jul 2022 13:19:47
Ken
Appears like you are conducting a three line whip to get behind the manager. The manager is a transient employee, I support the club unreservedly regardless of the leaching owners, the manager has to earn that like SAF, the Doc and Sir Matt. Where I see concerns I voice them, there are concerns with the team and no amount of trying to force people into line will change that.
23 Jul 2022 13:35:50
Your wrong on 3 counts. But thanks for using the capital letters.
1 I did not want ole to fail I don't want the club ever to fail. I could see no other outcome so withdrew support for him. I ran out if optimism.
I would like rid of martial I don't like him never have but if eth gets him playing and scoring I'll be delighted same goes for Fred. I'm less optimistic of those 2 things happening than I am of significant team improvement but would be delighted if they did.
2. My optimism is not with any caution but I am not arrogant enough to assume my optimism has no chance of being proved incorrect.
There is no caution in my optimism at all I'm 100% optimistic I have no way of knowing if my optimism will be fulfilled but its without caution as I've no fear if being wrong but don't assume I'm right.
3. My opinion will be changed if there is evidence there to prove that. So that's just silly despite the use of capitals ?
Finally there is of course no need to change opinion but I'd have a desire to as I'd prefer to have as many fans united as possible. O don't like seeing the club being run down all the time. An individual employee or employees fine but not the club itself. That's just my opinion and I'll always defend the club but maybe not always its employees.
{Ed014's Note - you are full of shit mate! ???
23 Jul 2022 13:47:50
Redman why not answer the direct questions I asked.
Why should we as fans be cautious in supporting the new manager?
What constitutes success for you this season?
What is stopping you giving the manager support before a ball is kicked?
Do you exercise your constitutional right to vote in a general election or are you given special dispensation to vote after you see how they are getting on?
23 Jul 2022 13:49:18
Redman everybody knows the team is short everybody has concerns about the team.
You said we should be cautious to support the manager. Why?
23 Jul 2022 14:04:28
Redman you are one of the most respected posters on here.
Why on earth would you be cautious of being optimistic.
You say eth has to earn your respect.
Are you hopefully he will do that?
Are you hopeful he will be successful.
I'm working on the assumption you would answer yes to both of those questions.
So why would you fear hoping for these things.
You are cautious of hoping we do well I can't understand that.
23 Jul 2022 17:47:44
Ken
Why should we as fans be cautious in supporting the new manager? I have explained this a number of times. Because his experience is in the Dutch league, so far he has appeared to only consider Ajax related players as good enough. It concerns me that he may only feel comfortable with what he knows as players, when we need to have the right level. Will Dutch league players cut it? I have concerns on this. Looks a good coach, but this is a new level for him.
What constitutes success for you this season? Top 4 and a cup
What is stopping you giving the manager support before a ball is kicked? I support the club, but the manager is an employee. I would say this manager hasn’t yet had success in a major league. Looks to have good potential, but unlike the managers of the top four hasn’t shown he can do it at the highest level. I have hopes he can but our recruitment has not been strong and focus on comfort zone of players is something I noted. We don’t know he can step up to this level and won’t until May next year.
Do you exercise your constitutional right to vote in a general election or are you given special dispensation to vote after you see how they are getting on? I know there is sarcasm there, Ken probably because I am not full of enthusiasm for ETH. I vote in every election, local, general or referendum and you would not be surprised to know I have clear opinions on issues that matter and express them.
I think ETH can earn respect, of course I hope he will be successful but there are still questions over him. We didn’t sign Pep, Klopp, Tuchel or Conte who have all shown they can win the big prizes, we signed potential at this level. ETH has a lot to overcome and players from the Dutch league, an inferior one, need to step up, just like the manager, I am not 100% convinced they all will, especially if they don’t strengthen with other quality in several areas
Hope that answers your questions.
23 Jul 2022 18:49:25
If you're not optimistic going into a season, what's the point?
23 Jul 2022 19:28:01
Thanks redman.
I and nobody is for 1 second suggesting that eth is going to 100% for sure succeed.
Nobody knows that.
But you want to be cautious of giving him support until he proves himself.
So when will you decide to give him your support?
How long did it take you to give fergie support?
You want the board to support him you want the glazers to support him but you want to be cautious.
You want him supported by others but your not prepared to support him without caution.
I'm at a loss as to why any supporter would not support him 100% from day 1 like the board have.
Why do you feel the need to be cautious as a supporter?
What fear do you have of giving him support?
Worst case is you were wrong, realise that and withdraw your support.
Take a leap of faith you might enjoy it. But imagine having to admit your wrong. Ooh the shame of it. ?? imo you never need to be cautious as a supporter as it serves no purpose.
He was not your 1st choice he was not mine.
Klopp was not a hugely successful manager before coming to England and has won 1 epl in 7 attempts.
Tuchel won the French league which is no more competitive than the Dutch. Not sure what else he won.
Chelsea jumped on his potential and he has scraped top 4 twice and won the cl to realise some of the potential Chelsea invested in.
Simeone I think was your personal preference. Known for his dour defensive football with a poor record of winning trophies would have had your 100% support from the get go. I don't see any difference other than he is not your choice.
So if he fails to get top 4 and win a cup but there is big improvement in lots of other aspects and things are moving very much in the right direction does he get your support or do you think we should rip it up and start again or will you just sit on the outside looking in on the fence with caution until he wins something?
23 Jul 2022 19:46:10
Thanks ken, I do think I had some more quality posts, but perhaps you haven't agreed on those.
Ed, what most of us fans are expecting is good fight for the top 4 and a positive style of play. I don't see that as overly optimistic.
I think everyone is sceltical about Martial, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't get a chance.
Im not sure who you support, if I remember correctly, its Arsenal, and bet you think you will get top 4, or win EL and expect some players to improve. What happens if Saka loses his form, like Bruno or Rashford? Would you still back him?
23 Jul 2022 20:02:57
Sepp
Seen an awful lot of seasons, realistic rather than optimistic. Things will improve but there are some concerns and being unrealistic and over optimistic doesn’t do much for you.
23 Jul 2022 22:43:34
Ken
Many questions, obviously this is vexing you
So when will you decide to give him your support?
I support the club not the manager. If the manager does well then support grows. Just because they have the title of manager it doesn’t automatically require or ensure respect. Experience and taking everyone in the right direction engenders respect and then support for what they do. I have seen many senior business figures arrive in businesses and it depends on what they do, as to how they are thought of.
How long did it take you to give fergie support?
I think I said on here that we knew what SAF did at Aberdeen, watched how he sorted out the big two. I saw the drinking culture at United first hand so knew it was a big job. The same as now, see how he did. After Sexton and big Ron, experience told you not to just believe everything would be great. The loss to City 5.1 was hard to take in 89, but we knew he had done so much at Aberdeen, so it was worth persevering with. Tough times though.
24 Jul 2022 09:37:46
No it's not vexing me redman.
It puts things in perspective and gives me clarity on your thought process.
I'm a lot clearer now I was.