22 Jan 2020 09:36:00
Ed047, hope you are well mate.
Good job from your lot last night. 10 men and a good fighting point.
Of course nobody wants their team to finish 4th but there us a significant prize for doing so.
Who do you think will grab that 4th spot.
Personally i see 4 contenders at the moment.
Chelsea
United
Wolves
Spurs
Im flabergasted that with 34 points at this stage of the season we still have a hope of a cl place.
I don't think chelsea will hang on to 4th but i can't really make a strong case for any other of the teams in contention. I even have a feeling that Leicester may get dragged back into it.
Liverpool aside this has got to be the worst epl season ever in terms of quality football . So many teams dishing up a load of crap for their supporters.
{Ed047's Note - I’m good thanks Ken and hope you are too mate, I have been impressed with Arteta so far, we certainly have a 100% better mentality which he knew he had to change and hopefully improvements will continue.
As for top four yes it does have a significant prize and for those currently competing for that spot it will be quality of player that the club can then attract. I don’t think any of the 4 you mention are remotely close to challenging in it.
It’s incredible to think that such a low points tally would put anyone there and it’s anyone’s guess who’ll be consistent enough to get over the line.
I’d be surprised if Leicester drop out but again you never know, I will say I don’t rate Chelsea much at all and was saying to someone yesterday if you combined our squad, yours and Chelsea’s I don’t think we’d get any closer to Liverpool and City.
I like the way Sheffield United are playing and who knows what they might do.
Losing Rashford means someone else has to step up and is Martial capable. I’m doubting that.
As for us, I just want to see continued improvement in what Arteta is doing, the board to back him, vane hope I know, then I’ll just go with wherever we finish, top four for me was over weeks ago.
22 Jan 2020 10:43:15
Thanks ed047.
It really is crazy to think we are nine points off a relegation place yet only 6 off a cl place.
I think arteta will do well. There is a better intensity and prouder to your game and temperamentfor sure.
He does need about 7 or 8 new players including a new back 4.
I don't rate Chelsea too highly. Lack a goal scorer and a cb for me I particular.
As for United nah i'm not sure martial will step up either, i'd have him out the door hot on the heels of ole and pogba, wolves could do it. They do have a knack of winning games. Again they are not great at the back.
Spurs i discount after kanes injury.
Sheffield will fall short due to lack of goals imo.
Either way it will be a closer fought race and tighter finish than the race to win the league sadly.
{Ed047's Note - no probs mate, I think its a waiting game for us and you’re right about Spurs and Sheffield I was thinking more of in relation to causing upsets amongst the front runners but then in saying that any club could do that, look at the Saints flying at the mo.
22 Jan 2020 11:27:36
Yeah I'm delighted for the saints after that drubbing by Leicester. Southampton are only 3 points behind us and ahead of arsenal that is some turnaround.
3 wins on the bounce puts any team In contention for a European place.
Its no harm that the old guard are not having it their own way all the time.
22 Jan 2020 11:41:48
Ken - From a fans perspective what are the benefits of us finishing 4th in your opinion?
I accept the Club will make more money which is great as long as its reinvested back into the squad.
In terms of attracting players I'm not convinced by the argument that they will only sign for Champions League Clubs. Does scraping 4th really make us that more attractive for the top talent if the likes of City, Liverpool, Real, Barca, Bayern etc are also interested! On the other hand With all due respect to the likes of Celtic, Lille, Benfica, Atalanta, Napoli, Genk, Valencia amongst many others will they really choose those types of Clubs over Utd because their in the Champions League and Utd aren't? Some might but I would argue Utd would still be an attractive proposition to a lot of players. There are loads of talented players to choose from but we must improve our scouting and recruitment first.
We should be talking about how to close a gaping 30 plus point gap not worrying about the difference between finishing 4th or 5th. Do we really want to be in a competition just to make up the numbers.
The aim of the Club should be to win the league and Champions League not to finish 4th just to participate in the Champions League. Until this mindset changes the Club will continue to be plagued by inconsistency and mediocrity in my opinion.
22 Jan 2020 11:59:58
DLIB, I think finishing in the top four and getting back to the UCL will make a significant difference to the whole club. Not only do we received more money in terms of sponsorship/ prize money etc, we will find it easier to convince top players to join.
Jadon Sancho will only join a UCL club, Steven Bergwijn (a player Dortmund are looking at as a Sancho replacement) has come out and publicly said he will only leave PSV for a UCL club.
That's not to say players won't join us, but we might have to pay more in wages to convince them, or we might have to shop at the next bracket down from "world class or potentially world class".
22 Jan 2020 12:37:46
Shappy - Do you really believe that if we scrape 4th this season we've got a chance of signing Sancho in the summer if the likes of City, Bayern, Real or Barcelona are interested?
This top 4 nonsense is a lie we tell ourselves in order to justify a lack of success. The Club seek the extra revenue the competition offers and want you to believe that finishing in the top 4 will help the Club move forward but it's rubbish. It doesn't help the Club attract the very top players because they have other options and will chose a team capable of winning the competition not merely taking part and making up the numbers.
What will help the Club moving forwards is putting a proper footballing structure in place and prioritising football over finance.
22 Jan 2020 13:00:58
See my answer above dlib where your post was originally. Ta.
22 Jan 2020 13:27:36
DLIB, no if we are competing for players with clubs like Real Madrid or Barcelona then I don't see us finishing in the top four as being that important. After all we lost on players to those clubs when we were winning the league and the UCL with Sir Alex one of the greatest managers of all time at the helm.
However, we won't be competing with those clubs necessarily for most of our targets. We will likely be competing with PSG, Juventus, Atletico Madrid, Dortmund etc, these are top clubs, but lack the prestige of certain clubs. We shouldn't be missing out on players to these clubs, yet without UCL we almost certainly will do unless we massively over pay in wages.
Think of it like this, players will have two main motivations, gold and glory. While both are important, the hardest working players, the ones who'll leave everything out on the pitch play for glory.
If we can't offer players glory, then the only players we will have are those who play for gold. They get that whether they give their all or not. So what will motivate them to work to their maximum while wearing our shirt if we can't offer them the chance of glory?
22 Jan 2020 14:27:51
Shappy - That's assuming we have the same targets. Maybe it would allow us to attract a few more players but is that really enough and let's be honest the truth is there is a plethora of talent out there. Getting the structure and recruitment correct is much more important in my opinion.
If the Club is really committed to competing and winning trophies again it must implement a proper footballing structure. Until this happens the Club will continue to make mistakes and waste money.
Finishing 4th will only lace the palm of the Glazers allowing them to pursue other opportunities for revenue growth.
It we had a clear structure and vision, adopted an elite and winning mentality then top 4 would take care of itself.
It's the ambition of the Club I'm questioning pal and I'm just not convinced that finishing 4th without other major changes will lead us back to the top.
Are you absolutely convinced that the Club is doing everything it possibly can and is completely committed and determined to return us to the top?
22 Jan 2020 14:54:29
Dlib is a chicken and egg situation.
You are bashing the owners unfairly imo.
Which owners have spent more in the last 7 years?
With the right coach what we have would do much better.
If results on the pitch imorove the atmosphere the revenue the roi the development will imorove alongside that success and will in turn drive further success.
Get it better on the pitch first.
22 Jan 2020 15:20:15
DLIB, I agree getting the structure and the right people in the right roles is far more important long term.
Yet I don't think we can easily dismiss the importance of the top 4 finish this season.
Lingard apparently want's out, he isn't a great player but even he feels his ambitions could be achieved elsewhere, rather than with us. He is a club player, coming through our academy and is a fan of the club. Yet he is considering his future.
So why would other players with no attachment to the club be so keen to join?
Yes there are many players out there, but we will have a profile of player we need. They need to have the right skill set, have the right mentality, be the right age (we have many young players, we need players close to their peak with experience), and they need to want to come to the club. That soon whittles down the options, maybe to only 2 or 3 players. We might lose out on our top target to a Barcelona or a Real Madrid, but we can't afford to be missing out on our second or third choices to Dortmund and Atletico Madrid otherwise we really have to start to compromise on key aspects about the players we are signing.
We have a thin squad with maybe only 3-4 players who should be first choice. We have several talented young players who could play a key role, but we can't be sending out a team with 4-5 teenagers every week and seriously expect to win titles. Our squad needs 5-8 players, over the next few windows.
If we bring in 8 players who are our 5th or 6th choice how far away will we be from having the top class team we hope for?
The world has far more competition than ever before, Youri Tielemans supposedly chose Leicester over us in the summer after we came in with a late bid matching Leicester. He chose Leicester and it is hard to say that was the wrong choice based on this seasons performances.
In the EPL, you don't have a traditional top four, we have Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Leicester, United, Spurs, Arsenal, Wolves and even Sheffield United fighting for European places. Everton have hired Ancelotti and have financial backing. Then there are the teams outside of England.
We can't be arrogant and expect players to sign based on our history or how many shirts we sell in Asia. Players will sign based on a sporting project and clear evidence that we are working toward something and we are competing for honours. Not qualifying for the UCL is not ideal and will impact us.
Plus how deep do you see the Glazers sticking their hands into their pockets to buy the players we need if the club loses 40m in sponsorship revenue, plus another 40-50m loss in revenue due to not being in the UCL. Potentially as much as 100m less revenue by not making the UCL this year. Not only will Jadon Sancho not want to come, we might not be able to afford him, or anyone elses high wages/ transfer fee.