Manchester United banter 83959

 

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23 Oct 2019 11:05:30
Interesting comments from Ed Woodward.

He accepts that the recruitment system and strategy were flawed post the retirement of SAF.
Now he is guarenteeing that the revamped system is much better and we can expect much better ratio of successful signings.

He insists that the football experts under him identify targets.
His job is to sign off the deals after consulting with the manager.

Agree2 Disagree0

23 Oct 2019 12:42:43
"His job is to sign off the deals after consulting with the manager. ". this is the area that's a dogs dinner and appears not quite fit for purpose!

23 Oct 2019 13:56:21
But we know this isn’t accurate because certain signings like Fred were foisted upon the manager, and other signings were jettisoned.

He may just be there to sign off on transfers, but the manager is not the person dictating transfer policy.

23 Oct 2019 13:56:47
He said to sign off money. this means after everything being put in place.

23 Oct 2019 14:09:58
I know it's fashionable to lay all the blame at Ed Woodwards door. Yet Ed002 has said multiple times that people blaming the signings on Ed don't understand how the club works.

It does sound very plausible that the club just didn't know what to do after Sir Alex retired and were woefully under prepared for how to move the club forward.

We didn't need a DoF or a more expansive scouting and recruitment system under Sir Alex. He did all that while managing the club. He knew all the agents, he had all the connections and he knew who to trust. Once he left he took all that knowledge and experience with him.

No other manager world wide did anywhere near that much work or had that know-how. So until that structure was put in place every manager was destined to fail.

The structure the club is attempting to sort out appears to becoming clearer. The DoF or technical director the club wants seems to have a different kind of remit to many of those on the continent. Rather than someone to be the visionary it seems we are looking for someone to implement the vision by aligning the recruitment with that ideology.

Still giving the manager more freedom to be tactically flexible, but to make sure the players we bring in fit into that player profile the club is looking for.

23 Oct 2019 15:23:16
Danny, What I read the other day was there is a new process in signing players. There is a committee that discuss transfers, on that committee is the manager and his assistant, Marcel Bout, Jim Lawlor and Matt Judge, with occasionally other scouts who have scouted specific targets there for their input.

Apparently the policy is the manager says what type of player he needs i.e offensive full back, right sided forward etc. The scouting team then identifies a certain number of targets, which are then scouted more extensively, that list is cut down, with further scouting and more cutting down until they are left with three potential targets. Criteria to cut them down include an age profile, availability, and whether they fit into the clubs player profile.
The committee will then decided on a first, second and third choice with the manager having a final say on which of the three he would ideally like. Then Matt Judge attempts to negotiate a deal for said player. Sometimes that player might choose to stay at their current club (Sancho), sometimes that player will accept a rival offer and move elsewhere, and sometimes the club will sign the player. If the first choice isn't available then the club might pursue the second choice.

Obviously however, this can be a very time consuming process and often if the club are targeting players in multiple positions. Imagine if the club tried to sign 5 players, and for whatever reason the first and second choice were not available then Matt Judge would need to open negotiations with 15 different players agents and their clubs, in order to bring in 5 players.

Of course this is only what I've seen written, and the process may work very differently. Yet if this is accurate then both what the club and Mourinho have said is true.

That any player bought (Fred) was done so with the managers blessing.
However, if Fred was one of the three players the club had decided (with Mourinho) then it might be true that Fred wasn't the first choice player Mourinho wanted. And that he accepted him as he felt it was Fred or no one (assuming the other two options weren't available) .

On Paper, Fred was an ideal player to sign, he offered mobility, and incisive passing while being defensively astute. He should have worked well alongside Matic and Pogba, giving us a player who covers for Pogba's lack of defensive nous and Matic's lack of mobility knitting the whole midfield together. However, either the step up from the Ukrainian league was too much for him, or he hasn't fitted well with his team mates.

23 Oct 2019 15:57:16
Shappy fans might not know about how the club works but the last 3 managers have complained that transfer decisions were made with no consideration given to their opinion.

Lvg has claimed it wasn't his choice to sign di maria, many of the players signed by Mourinho and lvg weren't anywhere near their top choices.

Woodward clearly can't let go of the power he seems to have now, Mourinho was here for nearly 2½ years. I don't think the biggest companies in the world search for 30 months to find a ceo let alone someone a lower down the chain, yet it will be nearly a year since Mourinho left and we still don't have one.

Yes the signings are working well right now but let's just go back and check how good was bailly in his first season? Martial in his first season? Lindelof last season? Lukaku in his first season?

They all look like they are working out until they don't and we need a replacement and then the process starts again.

23 Oct 2019 16:44:08
CSM,

Let's break down the signings.

Fellaini and Mata, I think its fair to say Fellaini was definitely a Moyes signing. And I don't think there is anything to suggest Mata wasn't a player Moyes wanted.

LvG has said that Herrera and Shaw were not his signings, he also said Martial was signed for his successor and not for him. Ironically the best signings from LvG's were not his choices.

Blind and Depay were his signings, as was Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Romero with four of them being players he managed before either at AZ Alkmaar, Bayern or with the Dutch national side.

Rojo was a player he wanted as he wanted a left footed CB to give balance, while Darmian was a player he first wanted while at Bayern Munich so that is another two signings that were his choice.

Which just leaves Falcao and Di Maria. LvG is on record months before the club signed Di Maria that he was the kind of player he needed to improve the side. Which would suggest he was a player forced on LvG, although it is also possible that the club were already negotiating for Di Maria and LvG was just towing the party line. While Falcao was brought in as a replacement for Welbeck who LvG was never a fan of. Maybe he wasn't LvG's first choice, but I doubt many people at the time would have turned their nose up at Falcao as a replacement for Welbeck.

Which means at least 7 more likely 9 of the signings under LvG were his choices, while Herrera and Shaw was Moyes targets which were okayed by LvG and Martial was signed with one eye on the future.

Bailly was a target under LvG and one that Mourinho agreed to when he joined. Zlatan and Pogba were both players Mourinho wanted though with one being a former player of his and the other a player he wanted while at Chelsea. Matic and Lukaku were also former players that Mourinho wanted. While Lindelof was a tip from his contacts in Portugal. Mkhitaryan who knows. Dalot is another Mourinho target through his contacts. While Sanchez and Fred have question marks over whether they were players Jose wanted. Sanchez certainly fits the bill of the kind of player Jose likes, although Persic was clearly the player he really wanted.

So on reflection it doesn't sound like many of the players have been forced on our managers, in some cases it was transfer already agreed under the previous manager who the new manager agreed to follow through with. Or the odd one like Martial or Dalot signed with the future in mind. All have been signed with the managers consent though.

Also note how Ed002 has said several times that the club are still looking to sign Jose's targets. Which further suggests the managers at the very least plays an integral part in the signing process.

So I don't think there is much ground to say someone at the club is forcing players on our managers.

23 Oct 2019 17:26:28
“Also note how Ed002 has said several times that the club are still looking to sign Jose's targets. Which further suggests the managers at the very least plays an integral part in the signing process”

Yes, and Ed002 has also said that this shows the lack of knowledge and forward thinking in recruitment. The club has a new manager but is still looking at players identified by the former manager. Same as what happened when LVG arrived, and the club brought in Moyes’s targets.

Recruitment by committee doesn’t work. The manager needs a DOF they can work directly with on recruitment. How can they shape their side when the recruitment team always has one foot stuck in the plans of the previous manager.

{Ed025's Note - im with you there danny..

23 Oct 2019 17:28:00
Shappy falcao according to lvg was his 6th or 7th choice, same with bailly who wasn't top of the list neither were lukaku or matic.

The problem here isn't just foisting players on the managers, its consistently providing managers with 3rd or 4th choice players and then expecting them to deliver the results.

Which is what happened this season too, only difference being unlike lvg or Mourinho, OGS in his wisdom has decided not to sign those players and result of which we are closer to relegation than we are to top 4.

The man most responsible for this is woodward and until he continues to be responsible for transfers that's what we will get. The athletic article painted him as an incompetent idiot who likes the spotlight too much and nothing in his statements help change that view. Until he goes nothing will change.

23 Oct 2019 17:30:39
And about going after Jose's targets, really great job that from the club. Why ask ole who he wants, why not give him the players jose wanted but never gog. But hey that's not forcing players on a manager.

23 Oct 2019 18:31:42
Jesus shappy, that gave me a headache reading all that stuff, who's choice was this and that player. The process, Matt judge possibly dealing with umpteen amounts of managers and agents.

You could be bang on the money with your assesment and knowledge of how the ins and outs of the club go but after reading it, and if that is indeed the case, they are so messed up.

23 Oct 2019 18:51:08
I read somewhere that our scouting/ recruitment system was completely tailored to Sir Alex and his genius before he left.

Sir Alex and a few trusted personel would identify a player and he obviously had the power and reputation to phone a senior figure at a players club and it was more or less a foregone conclusion he'd get the player So therefore there wasnt a great need for a powerful recruitment approach.

it was never taken into to much consideration for David Moyes.
Apparently the scouting department weren't even offering suggestions to him maybe one of the reasons he only got to sign fellaini and Mata.


Only recently are we attempting to fix the issue properly and the recruitment department has had to be stripped down and rebuilt again so its taking time.

{Ed047's Note - whose picked the 30 odd players you’ve signed since he left?

23 Oct 2019 19:02:29
A very inexperienced recruitment team I'd say ed.

{Ed047's Note - same ones that picked our new manager probably! 🤷‍♂️😉

23 Oct 2019 19:49:07
Danny recruitment via committee does work it's how the majority of club's handle transfers.

It's not like a supermarket where one man (be that the manager or whoever) picks players off the shelf.

You have a manager, someone from the finance department, the head scout and sometimes a director of football.

No large company leaves recruitment up to one person. Hell, if you go for a job stacking shelves at Tesco at least three people work together on who to hire (line manager, department manager and store manager) .

However, when we are talking about hiring at a football club transfer fees, huge waves and other associated cost mean that the decision carries much weight and impact.

To think one person is just picking names willy nilly just doesn't add up.

Yes a couple of managers have complained about signings made during their tenure that didn't work out. Funny how they sang the players praises when they signed them but only slate the signing after they got sacked.

Jose said he only agreed to sign Fred because he didn't think he would get anyone else.

Well then he did have a say, and he did agree to sign him. So he wasn't forced to take him. If he didn't think he was good enough or he didn't fit what he needed then he shouldn't be sanctioning a 52m signing.

Ultimately we don't know what is going on, but we do know Ed002 has said that Ed Woodward doesn't deal with transfers.

The club apparently does have a system, one that has had to be built over the last 6 years and one where they have had to learn on the job. It is not a finely oiled machine, it is a work in progress.

Managers have a say in the process and the final say on whether the club moves for a target. However, they don't get to dictate the signings, which considering how quickly we go through managers can only be a good thing. There appears to be a profile of player the club would ideally like to target. I'm sure if they keep working on the process they will improve.

I think mangers mentioning about how the signings were made under their stewardship are merely deflecting away from their failures.

Moyes wasn't sacked because of Fellaini or Mata, but because he couldn't get the team to perform.

LvG was sacked because his philosophy bored the fans to death.

Mourinho was sacked because he turned the whole dressing room against himself.

All managers make signings, some work, some don't.

If Ole gets sacked it won't be because of AWB, Maguire or James.

23 Oct 2019 21:02:38
For those wanting a brief summary of Shappy’s very long posts
All the managers agreed to the players they wanted and got it generally wrong but out of all of them only Ole got it right this summer. Simple really.

Ignore managers saying they didn’t get who they wanted.

23 Oct 2019 22:29:59
january is only two months away, hopefully we’ll see the merit of this system by then. It’s important to recognise that a problem existed, and it’s encouraging to know that something is being done about same, but it’s a plan and that’s not something we’ve had of late so give it a chance and let’s see how it goes.

23 Oct 2019 22:57:45
Its suggested that SAF was behind a lot of signings and that recruitment has been a mixed bag since ; it must be remembered that we lost David Gill at the same time who I believe to be more instrumental than given credit for. Forget moyes, LVG and JM - they've gone, history.

What we need as a club is a definite recruitment plan with an input from, manager, scouts, financial specialists and others relevant to the succesful recruitment of future players. A Dof would be fine but studying sucessful models from other clubs and taking the best bits to fine tune our way forward is the way to go.

24 Oct 2019 07:26:56
I thought OGS had absolutely no say in the players that they sign?

24 Oct 2019 10:41:01
Bravo Red Man, again you seem to have read my post and totally missed what I said. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet with me (which I find hilarious and cute) . You read my posts with an preset idea in your head about what I am going to say and therefore seem unable to actually grasp what I'm saying.

I actually said few if any signings have been made with out the managers permission, they may not have been the managers first choice, but they were a choice the manager deem acceptable enough to give the spending of millions of pounds the go ahead.

Therefore, the manager does have to accept some responsibility for the signings made under their management.

I feel the club has been undergoing a long process of discovery and adaptation since Sir Alex left. I would imagine Moyes and LvG probably had far more freedom of choice when it comes to signings than Mourinho or Ole have had. This is purely do to when they were manager during the process of fine tuning a recruitment policy/ system.

The fact LvG has said Falcao was his 6th or 7th choice (although vitally a choice he was happy to sign), while the latest information seems to be that the club will only pursue the 1st, 2nd or at most 3rd choice targets for a position. Shows that the process has evolved and changed since LvG's time in charge.

If that process holds true then Ole has had less impact than his predecessor and his successor will likely have less impact than him. This is as the club fine tunes the recruitment policy and process.

The most recent signings appear to be better than previous one's and that's including the players signed in Jose's last summer. James, Maguire and AWB seem like they are going to have a good amount of success, Dalot looks promising, while Fred appears like he might not make it, while Grant has neither been a success or a flop. So we are looking at around 80% success rate with signings compared to the previous 8 signings which had a much more mixed bag.
With maybe Lindelof, Pogba and Zlatan being the successes, Sanchez and Mkhitaryan being clear flops, with Lukaku, Matic and Bailly being harder to put in either category and could be branded either a flop or a moderate success. That said looking at the three successful players (Lindelof, Pogba and Zlatan) you could question how much of a success they have been.

If you go back even further then LvG's signings had a terrible success rate and in hindsight probably played as big a role in him losing his job as his style of football did.

It shows a progression of getting better with recruitment at the club. If we can continue that then we will improve as a team.

Yet all you saw was me waving a Ole flag in my replica 99 shirt with number 20 on my back. Bless.

24 Oct 2019 13:18:35
Well it's fair to say nothing has changed . Same old same old.





 

 

 
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