Manchester United banter 83578

 

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21 Aug 2019 19:44:25
There has been some fierce discussion today and I have enjoyed reading everybody's opinions but perhaps the most interesting facet of debate is the notion that expectations at United remain unrealistically high.

Many seen unable to differentiate between our past and our present. We still judge players and performances to title winning standards despite not having won the league for over 6 years and struggling to consistently finish in the top 4.

I would like to clarify that this is not a criticism, I have fallen into this trap myself. I would also like to add that we should never settle for mediocrity and as a Club we must always strive for excellence but after 6 years of turmoil we must also make peace with our current situation and try to formulate a coherent strategy to return us to the top. There must be an understanding and realisation that this will not happen overnight.

Comparisons with City or Liverpool at this moment in time are unhelpful and unproductive in my opinion; as are comparisons with past Utd teams and players.

I posted earlier about the evolution of this United team and this is something I firmly believe we are witnessing right now.

For the first time in nearly a decade we have a recognisable, first choice back four. Tuanzebe is now on the periphery of the team ahead of the likes of Smalling and Jones, not to mention Rojo or Darmian. Title winning teams are invariably built from the back. Any good team needs a solid foundation from which to perform and Ole has quickly identified and rectified this immediately.

In midfield the lethargic and ageing Matic has been replaced by Mctominay.

The manager has placed his faith in the likes of Rashford and Martial and jettisoned Lukaku. Sanchez may follow him out of the door in the next couple of weeks.

I'm sure it won't be long until the likes of Greenwood, Gomes and Chong all get their chance to impress. These are players brought through the system, they hold a unique affinity with the Club and young players rarely let you down when it comes to effort or application.

The average age of the team has been reduced, the style of play has been rejuvenated, the faith and trust in the academy lads has been restored, the recruitment policy rethought and revamped.

The manager and his backroom staff are trying to take the Club in a new direction that has traditionally produced success for us in the past. This will take time and patience. The recruitment of young, British players with hunger, ambition and a burning desire to play for the Club is a step in the right direction. The emphasis on improving the team rather than the recruitment of high profile galatico type individuals appears to have come to an end.

Traditionally Utd have flourished with stability, the promotion of academy prospects and the sound recruitment of the best domestic talent combined with talented foreign players that view Utd as the pinnacle and don't mind relocating to the dreary Northwest (Tongue in cheek but you get my point) .

Many believe this job is beyond Ole but I think the initial signs are encouraging. He appears to have an identity of how he wants us to play and the type of players and characters he wants in the dressing room. During the long bleak periods of Jose Mourinho many fans opined that they just wanted to see a Utd team work hard, play with energy and intensity with the emphasis on attacking football and giving young players a chance. Is this not what Ole has delivered? Rashford and Mctominay are now first choice players. Tuanzebe is knocking on the door and whilst I like Lindelof I have a feeling Tuanzebe would also make an excellent partner for Maguire. A 17 year old is now a firm fixture in the first team squad and its now only a matter of time before he's given his chance. Chong and Gomez are on the brink of the starting 11.

It remains to be seen if Ole can forge a title winning team but if we target the likes of Maddison and Sancho moving forward to improve our attack we won't be that far away. To topple City at the moment would require almost perfection but Pep won't be around for ever. Our challenge is to have a team approaching its peak years when Pep finally moves on to pastures new. Whether the board and the even fans are prepared to invest in the project and practice what they preach might just be the difference between breaking the cycle of failure or prolonging it.

Agree13 Disagree0

21 Aug 2019 20:19:31
DLIB
Really good post that pal, I really like the team, squad and direction we have taken this summer.
Loads of positives imo and I have a feeling it will continue to develop over the season.
Difficult to take over a team mid season especially in the circumstances ole did so for me we are almost only 2 games in the ole era.
Early days but for me things are looking good .

21 Aug 2019 20:21:48
Good post mate. The key point you make is context. We have been mid table or failing for top 4 for nearly 6 years. Unfortunately we may need to temper expectations. That’s not to mean we shouldn’t aim to win every year, but perhaps we have to realise we cannot compete properly for a few years whilst we have 3/ 4 windows. I’m confident and pleased with what I’ve seen so far. Still lots to improve on, but I’m liking the defence and martial and rashford so far.

21 Aug 2019 20:30:24
But you forgot to mention that Lingard is crap. All this common sense nonsense will get you nowhere, you need to get passive aggressive mate.

21 Aug 2019 21:03:29
Post of the season.

21 Aug 2019 21:09:04
Good post DLIB I raised some of these points yesterday. We now have a direction under Ole.

Patience is what is needed now.

21 Aug 2019 21:10:12
I am looking forward to what this squad produces over the year. There is a lot of growth to come in all areas.

When European and domestic cup games kick in, and a potential for injuries, we may well see our our squad depth in midfield tested. But that will simply be another challenge to overcome.

If we fail to get top 4 is will have been a mistake not strengthening midfield. If we get top 4 and our squad has grown together it could be the making of a future title winning team.

Also agree there has been some enjoyable debate on here recently. Lots of strong views, usually well made. Onky time and games will give us the answers we crave.

21 Aug 2019 21:19:51
Dodgybanter
It's another good post I have a similar view.

21 Aug 2019 21:25:50
Just before Jose got sacked almost every poster wanted the team to work harder, play more progressive football and give the kids a chance. Some even proclaimed that playing attractive football was more important than winning trophies. I just kind of think we got what we wished for now some are changing the goal posts.

We finished the season in poor form and the opening two fixtures of this campaign looked daunting. We've navigated both fixtures reasonable well, the team has definitely worked harder with an intent on winning the ball higher up the pitch and getting more players into attacking positions.

Can we compete with the football being offered at the Etihad or at Anfield at the moment obviously not but was that really ever the expectation. When comparing performances we should be looking towards the likes of Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea none of whom are yet to set the world alight and have their own problems to solve.

The defence has hopefully been fixed the next step of the progress is to build a coherent attacking unit. I have absolutely no doubt we'll target an attacking midfielder and RW in the forthcoming windows.

Is it perfect far from it but maybe for the first time we have more of a long term plan. We have a manager that absolutely loves the Club, he appears to want to recruit players that share this view, he wants the team to work harder and has given a pathway for our some very promising academy players.

Call me deluded but for the first time in ages I'm actually excited. I'm even looking forward to the Europa games where hopefully the likes of Greenwood, Gomes, Chong and Tuanzebe will all get their chance. I genuinely believe that we're heading in the right direction I just hope Ole gets the results to give him the time to build the team.

21 Aug 2019 21:41:37
Very good post DLIB.

21 Aug 2019 21:57:55
I agree with DLIB here, i'm excited for the first time in years we have a clear way to play and now with maguire at the back we will be playing the ball from the back pushing forward as we get it to our midfielders and attackers, against wolves at times we had our 10 players in their half and kept possesion and composure very well, now that i think we have sorted our defense out, ole can concentrate to identify and bring the right midfielders to play the system he wants to, if Kante is available then i would definitely try to get in at all cost, he has an engine! a driving force! that we definitely lack right now and of course a very energetic creative attacking mid and maybe another striker? well we'll see how the season pans out saturday can't come soon enough!

21 Aug 2019 22:28:08
I made a similar point the other week, do people really want to give the youth a chance, have players that give there all want to play for the club .
Or when push comes to shove do they really want big name fancy signings.

21 Aug 2019 22:50:55
Brilliant post DLIB and I agree 100%.

21 Aug 2019 23:38:56
Good post dlib.
I can't agree with it all but i agree with the overall sentiment.
I don't think gomes and chong are on the brink of the 1st 11 in fact far from it. I hope they get some chances in cup ties to impress and progress.

Ole and the club have gone back to a formula of what was successful in the past.
The back 4 looks more solid imo we are a top lb away from having a really solid looking unit. Shaw has improved but he does need competition
Tuanzebe seems to have leap frogged rojo jones and smalling which strengthens the team automatically.

I like what's been done so far.
The whole pogba and lukaku situation screwed up our summer window and we will suffer for the indecision as the season goes on i feel.

Ole is doing well so far his hands are tied this season as i don't expect much in jan. He has an awful midfield selection. The midfield is shrouded in mediocrity and we will pay for that no doubt about it. But all we can hope is that we sort it next summer
The camp seems united the sound bites coming from the club are positive.
I don't believe we should lower our sights and standards. Acceptance of mediocrity is what got us into this downward spiral.

At the outset of the season i said that we could should and have enough to improve on last season's total by 15 points. I expect the others pool and city to come back a bit. So that would be a good improvement. If Chelsea or arsenal improve by more then fair play to them.

21 Aug 2019 23:48:10
Id like to see a mixture of both.
Maguire is a fancy signing well a 'fancy price' anyway. I think a cb signing was crucial.
Would people have preferred not to sign maguire and just run with tuanzebe?
Awb again a fancy signing would people have preferred to just go with dalot?
In both of these cases i think we were right to make signings and use the youth as 1st choice back ups at the expense of the likes of darmian rojo smalling and jones.
I can't think of one poster on here that said we shouldn't make a cb signing and just go with youth.
So a think a mix is important.

22 Aug 2019 06:16:39
Really excellent post DLIB.
I'm a firm believer of evolution.

Ole has the right ideas, right mentality and attitude.
As the season progresses, the cohesion and understanding between the players will improve.
The endurance will improve to sustain the press and intensity for 90 minutes.

The recruitment was another step in the right direction. Had we signed a top right forward and a midfielder, we could have eased the goal scoring and creative burdern from other players.
I also believe, signing Maddison and Sancho will immediately solve the major gaps in the squad.

22 Aug 2019 07:29:52
Good post DLIB but i don't agree to most of it. Just my take on things as they stand.

I am pretty sure that AWB and Maguire were Jose targets so how has Ole changed that recruitment policy? McT and Rashford were first team regulars last season and if i am not mistaken then McT got a special award the season before so Ole hasn't done anything their either.

Its ironic that you speak that many are comparing the past with our present and that people are comparing our title winning teams with the present set and then go on to say that our traditions are for academy lads. Tell me which of the title winning teams in the last 6 years since we last won the title have won it using their academy lads? Did City use them or Chelsea? Liverpool won the CL last season, how many did they use? So to say that we can do only by these 17-18 year old lads is immature. Times have changed and its not 1992 anymore where the pressure was minimal compared to what we have today. It was just a game then, now its a business where its eat or get eaten.

Its pathetic that we make fun of Liverpool's "next year will be our year" project and are guilty of doing it ourselves. Their project has been going on for 30 years, Arsenal's is 15 and we are 6 years into it now.

I am sure that the likes of Greenwood and James are very talented but do they have the likes of Cantona to guide them when the going gets tough. Rooney had RvN, who does Greenwood look up to? Rashford? He is still teething himself. that's where the seasoned pros come in to the picture. Pogba is hardly the role model for Gomes or Garner to look up to.

McT is an academy graduate that's why he is the next Kante. But i am sure 90% of the folks would have been happy if we signed Kante. We are bigging up McT because we do not have Kante and hope that McT would be the one. Dybala didn't want to come just like most of the top end players and its all sour grapes now. We have Greenwood and this and that. We simply are not the big draw anymore and that is why we are not left with an option but to rely solely on teenagers.

We can keep talking of baby steps and the Ole project. I am sure the other big clubs of the past like Leeds, Nottingham Forest, AC Milan et al had the same thoughts but where are they now. On the other hand look at City and their project and Liverpool's current position where they have recruited heavily and in the best players and not relied that Origi would come good some day. You always need to have the seniors in the team to guide the youngsters which we do not have in the current squad.

We are naive as a club with no clear direction where we are headed to. Lack of intent in the transfer market and then the indecisiveness of the transfer team to close out the targets was a clear sign that we are in trouble. Have we moved anywhere with the suggestions of both LvG and Jose regarding our academy?

You say that most fans wanted a more free flowing style rather than the tactical games under Jose. I ask, did they bloody have a choice. You give me a choice of winning games 1-0 and picking up trophies, i will take that all day long rather than playing like we did against wolves without any "vertical passes".

Its not doom and gloom if we expect the best for our club and here we are stuck with a fan as a manager rather than a proper manager that has the prowess and the persona to be the manager of the alleged biggest club in the world. As things stand we are not the biggest club of Manchester.

{Ed047's Note - so much of that is how it looks from the outside looking in UA.

22 Aug 2019 08:21:43
Maguire isn't a fancy name, infact many didn't want him because he wasnt a fancy or dodng think he was good.

They wanted a dias or a skriniar who really aren't as good Maguire.
I think it took 1 game for the same people to change there mind .
Maguire may not be a fancy name but if he continues at this level not many will be shouting for the likes of dias.

This summer has been a breath of fresh air, both in our direction of the field in the transfer market and on the field .
DLIB sums it up very well.

22 Aug 2019 08:35:46
UA.
That's another good post.
Again like dilb i agree with some if it.
You get a hard time here from some and i admire and respect your posts and opinions.
I can feel the frustration pouring from you.
Your love for the club is no more or no less than some of the posters that think everything is rosey.

Keep the faith👍.

22 Aug 2019 09:35:58
World record signing imo qualifies for a 'fancy' signing title.
World record fee for a rb is fancy.
These are not bargain basement nobodies. world records for their respective positions.
Personally i couldn't understand the clamour for dias. But not seen too much of him. KK i could understand as he has been very good. But maguire whilst more expensive was three lower risk option with the easiest transition. 2 of the reasons he was so expensive and the worlds most expensive defender ever.

22 Aug 2019 10:15:35
He is a lot of things but I'm not sure old slab head is a fancy name.

22 Aug 2019 11:53:33
UA, it's clear you have little time for our academy. However, for some of us, especially the older ones, the academy is an integral part of the club's identity. The stat on an academy player being involved in every match day may seem trivial to some, but to me it's a source of immense pride. You ask how many academy graduates were in the latest title winning teams. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what City or other clubs do, it's what we do. And if it does change, due to fans wanting big names and instant success, then we just become another team. You and others might be ok with that because success is everything to you, but I'm proud of this club for many more reasons than its trophy haul. And if all this makes me sound like an aul, rambling sentimentalist, fair enough.

22 Aug 2019 12:48:25
UA if you can't see the change that's taking place then I can't take the rest of it seriously.
Yes we have problems but a magic wand isn't going to solve everything.

I think the way the markets going more an more top clubs are going to look to their academy more to fill gaps as their transfer budget goes on 1-2 signings. We're still a few signings short but i'd rather get 2 top quality players in than sign 4-5 lower quality ones.

City and Chelsea are hardly known for youth development. Well city produce them but they nearly always depart elsewhere. Chelsea look to be turning that around partly due to planning partly due to circumstance.

22 Aug 2019 13:04:39
UA, promoting youth players from academy is one of the core values of Manchester United as a club.

22 Aug 2019 13:22:16
I would much rather see the likes of chong, gomes and greenwood flourish than see the likes of di maria, lukaku and sanchez come in and steal a living and put in half arsed performances. There are some exciting youngsters coming through and I always love seeing our academy products excelling and forging successful careers. It is of course about balance, a blend of academy products with quality experienced additions. But i think we have made decent strides so far. Will take a few windows with the next few being critical. I am pleased with what I have seen so far.

22 Aug 2019 14:01:05
Park would you enlighten with a few of these academy graduates who have had successful careers besides the class of 92 which was 27 years ago.

To all the others who think i am against tradition, i am not against the tradition but i don't live in the past. I live in the present and look to the future. Yes, by all means involve the good ones. They deserve to play and prove themselves. Afterall the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Zlatan, Maldini amongst other greats were all academy graduates somewhere at some point in time and they turned out fine. Having Greenwood in the squad sharing responsibility with a senior member is one thing but being in the squad and having the responsibility of leading Manchester United is something beyond all our wildest imaginations. Careers and reputations may be built or destroyed. You become Scholes or Morrisson. You become Giggs or Januzaj.

Yes, to the one who said if i can't see change. I saw the change in the running but at the end of it all i saw a 1-1 draw with 2 shots on target. You may run all you want and keep 95% of the possession but if you do not do that 1 thing that you are required to win a game, its all a farce. You need to score a goal to win and i will take 1 shot on target with a 1-0 win, i will take that.

We all like to be sentimental when it comes to United and that is what will hold us back. You mention history but do you realize that for someone who is born in the 2000s, what is history. Nobody really cares what happened a 100 years ago like we all do but that is the harsh reality. The young ones see the City's of today pulling out trees and that is their history when they grow up. That is their childhood. People living in history become history. One needs to move with times.

All hail the academy but don't live by it. You need investment in the squad and we need it now else no matter what we say, we are in trouble.

22 Aug 2019 14:29:31
UA
It depends what you gauge success by in regards to academy players. Not every single player is going to be a Scholes, Giggs or beckham. You can’t go and buy a world class star for every position in the squad. You need to have local Lads who have come through and who would die for the shirt. That’s not to say a foreign player bought in cannot love united and feel like a local lad aka Cantona.

I agree united fans can be sentimental and it perhaps does hold us back. But we shouldn’t sell our soul to the devil. There are core values at united that should never be compromised: attacking entertaining football, and giving youth a chance. Even in an ever changing modern landscape where patience and loyalty is waning, we should never compromise our identity.

Btw I agree with a lot of what you have posted. We must live in the present and we must invest. A blind man can see we aren’t the finished article. But we must still build from within. We still must live by the academy. Invest in the infrastructure and you will see fruition. So to dismiss the academy the way you have is a two fingers up to the traditions of the club.

What makes the club so special is it’s history. Yes we shouldn’t be stuck in it (at times we have been guilty of that) but we also shouldn’t forget it. Otherwise we become like city or Chelsea. Now maybe that’s what you want, but that’s not Man Utd.

I agree we cannot put so much pressure on greenwood, the kid is 17 after all. I would have definitely brought in another midfielder and rw so that we could ease him and a few others in. But this is the situation we are in. So let’s get behind them and afford them patience. They will make mistakes and they will be inconsistent, but getting on their backs is exactly the thing you cannot do. I have an immense sense of pride when I see the likes of Gomes or greenwood succeed because they are homegrown.

22 Aug 2019 15:27:32
So do we do continue buying the di Maria, falcao sanchez .
Time will tell but this summer has been the best in a while clear direction now imo.

22 Aug 2019 16:04:49
I also like the direction we have taken jred. I think we need to assess all factors when signing a player. In the summer I think we did the right things stepping back from dybala as he didn’t want to join. It would have given us di Maria 2.0. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t go for top talent if it’s available. If the glove fits and they have the right profile, we should be bringing them in.







 

 

 
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