Manchester United banter 82829


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02 Jul 2019 13:29:31
On Maguire he seems to be polarising on here, some think he's clearly not good enough and others think he's exactly what we need.

One thing that should be remembered though is that just because someone is an upgrade on what we currently have doesn't mean we should sign them.

Of course maguire is better than the chuckle brothers or rojo and could slot in at left centre back next to lindelof or bailly.

But he fails the requirement we need in two pretty key areas. Pace and positioning, if we are going to play with a high line next season then him and lindelof could be exposed as neither have that pace or acceleration to recover if caught out of position.

If the centre back we need is not available this summer, it seems more sensible to go with what we have and address other glaring areas of concern such as central midfield and right wing.

The change in transfer policy that needed to be made is not signing someone for the sake of signing them not necessarily the nationality on the passport of the players we sign.

Agree10 Disagree1

02 Jul 2019 14:36:37
Could not have put it any better! There are some out there at distinctly less money that are better. Aldereiweld springs to mind.

Having made a bid of £70m and had it rejected, given I consider £50m way too excessive for Maguire, I hope beyond hope the board take the hint and walk away from this right now. He is not the right player and he definitely is not worth the price we've bid thus far. Great that the board are backing OGS but please, this madness must stop.

02 Jul 2019 15:03:03
I agree that Maguire polarises opinion but I'm not sure why.

Maguire would be an excellent signing in my opinion. What we need at the moment is a strong, commanding presence that is comfortable playing on the left side of the CB pairing. Maguire is dominant in the air and very composed in possession. His positioning is questioned based on little evidence and whilst he doesn't possess blistering pace I've rarely seen him isolated or exposed. I remember lots of people criticising VVD's positional play before he signed for Liverpool and whilst it may be an area that Maguire can work on it surely shouldn't distract from the whole package.

To suggest you need blistering pace to play a high back line is a misconception. The defensive line is high in order to squeeze the play and press the ball, winning the ball higher up the pitch. If there is pressure on the ball the opposition are denied time and space in order to play passes in behind. Any long balls are often misplaced or intercepted regularly conceding possession as they are played under pressure. The defenders can see the entire pitch and can often anticipate the long ball adjusting their position accordingly. Teams that press the ball effectively are rarely undone by long balls in behind the defence. What is a recipe for disaster however is a team that plays a high line without putting pressure on the ball and even defenders blessed with blistering pace would struggle under such circumstances.

What we desperately need is a player to come into our defence and hit the ground running. With Maguire we know exactly what to expect. A strong, commanding presence, that is dominant in the air and comfortable on the ball. He can fill the role on our weaker left side and he'd make a very good partner for either Lindelof or Bailly.

I have no idea why posters would prefer the likes of Dias or Milenkovic, young players, that I would imagine most posters have rarely seen play, with no experience of the premier league. Despite their talent they would need time to adapt and adjust and would also command a high transfer fee.

Buying potential is fine but an entire team cannot be bought on an experimental basis.

If we signed Maguire we would potentially have a solid back 4 capable of playing together for at least the next 5-7 years with a strong British core. Just like VVD I firmly believe Maguire is ready for the next step and would significantly improve our team. His strongest attributes are exactly what's missing in our defence and I think he's a player capable of still improving and getting even better. At 26 he's approaching his peak years and a player I would welcome wholeheartedly at our Club.

{Ed001's Note - this is nonsense, you do not need time and space to play a long ball in behind at all. It is the easiest ball in the world to play. All you need is a willing runner.}

02 Jul 2019 15:22:11
Ideally a CB like van dijk who can ping accurate balls to speedy attacking full backs would be great, but struggling to think who might be able to do this for us. Certainly not Maguire.

02 Jul 2019 16:36:38
Ed001 playing an accurate long ball from deep whilst under pressure is anything but easy and merely surrenders possession. Of course it's easy just to punt the ball down field and get somebody to chase it but that's hardly an effective tactic especially if the player is under pressure as well. If a team presses effectively often the only option is to hit a long ball which inevitably leads to a loss of possession. You obviously don't need time and space to kick the ball long but you do if you want to do it effectively and accurately. Whilst Maguire isn't the quickest he's certainly not slow and his perceived lack of pace shouldn't be a major cause for concern and shouldn't prohibit us from playing a high line.

{Ed001's Note - a long ball over the top doesn't have to be accurate if the defensive line is high, there is acres to hit. That is the point. I don't know why you are arguing this, you are quite simply wrong. It is basics, and why the Becks to Giggs cross field pass worked so well, Becks didn't have to hit a postage stamp as Giggs had pace, so he only had to put it in an area. It is exactly the same with the ball over the top with a pacey forward, you don't need it to be accurate, you play it into an area for the forward to chase. Defenders like Maguire, who are slow on the turn, are not going to catch anyone who gets in behind.}

02 Jul 2019 17:08:11
If people think that defenders that lack pace are suspect to balls over the top, take a look back at what Torres did persistently to Vidic. He basically marks him, drags him up the pitch, waits for the ball over the top, and does him for pace.

And Vidic was twice the defender Maguire ever will be.

{Ed001's Note - exactly Danny, it is the easiest thing in the world to do for a pacey player. It is how Vardy has made a career in the top flight and why players like Remy had great seasons playing for lesser teams.}

02 Jul 2019 17:16:28
Maguire in my opinion is extremely overrated. I get the market has went mad but he isn't even in the top 30 or 40 centre backs in the world for me. He is slow and against any quick movement will be found out.

Is he an upgrade on Smalling, Jones or Rojo, yeah he probably is, however, they are hardly the cream of the crop when it comes to centre backs.

02 Jul 2019 17:43:28
Hernandez too Ed. One of biggest evolutions in defending over the last few years is need for cbs to be faster and more agile, so that they don’t get caught when playing a high line.

We have people pointing to the likes of Steve Bruce, saying he didn’t have pace and he was a key player for us. But Bruce wouldn’t last a minute in today’s game.

{Ed001's Note - and he never really played in a team using a high line playing out from the back like modern day teams do. It was much more direct football, with a lot of from right to left balls into the corner for Giggs to latch onto. In a very similar way to what we are talking about with strikers behind high lines, Giggs could beat the defence for pace and the ball never needed to be that accurate as there were 40 yards or so to hit with the ball and the chances were he would get to it first. Giggs would have been perfect for the modern day inside forward role thinking about it.}

02 Jul 2019 18:23:55
Ed001 - You've completely misinterpreted my post and are taking the world high line too literally. Maybe the word I should have used is higher and I was talking in the context of Utd and Maguire.

All I said was that it's a misconception to suggest you need fast CB's to play a higher line. What you consider to be a high line depends on your interpretation and if the pressing is effective it's still hard for the other team to use the ball effectively.

My point was that Maguire's lack of pace wouldn't necessarily prevent Utd from playing higher up the pitch than we did under Mourinho or prohibit OGS from adopting a pressing game. How high Utd held that line would obviously depend on the opposition and this would be adjusted accordingly. No team leaves acres of space in behind against pacy forwards I presumed that was obvious. In such cases the team might drop 5 yards and the goalkeeper might provide some cover but they could still be considered to be playing a higher line than teams that preferred to defend deep and leave no space in behind.

I wasn't arguing just expressing my opinion and maintain that if there is good pressure on the ball playing the ball over the top isn't easy even if there is space in behind. The defender can still read the game, see the player lacks options, anticipate and adjust their position accordingly.

{Ed001's Note - the point is that the ball over the top is the easy ball no matter how much pressure there is being exerted. That is why Leicester were able to win the league, as they had a simple ball over the top every time. Their problems came when they tried to become a passing team instead. Playing higher up the pitch than Mourinho would simply mean getting outside your own box, so of course a lack of pace wouldn't stop that.

I think you are getting confused between a counter-press and a press. You can't use a counter-press without fast defenders, as you are pressing in the opposition half without getting your players back into position. A press you can apply easily, you just get everyone back into place, then press them when you are set. Pep and Klopp use a counter-press, but most teams in the Prem use a variant of the press instead.}

02 Jul 2019 18:28:54
Maguire has some attributes we are sadly lacking in.
He is fairly dominant in the air in both boxes.
He appears to be a talker on the pitch.
He is comfortable on the ball but can over run or over play it at times.
He is epl proven and has good intl and premiership experience.
He is also better all round imo than any of our other cb's with the possible exception of an every improving lindelof.
He is available to play nearly every week.
So lots of good attributes and a few there that compliment areas where lindelof is weaker and some that lindelof also has strength.
So for me that bodes well for a possible partnership.
Cbs work best if they compliment each other.
Now to the potential negatives.
Maguire can often get caught out of position.
Will he cope with the pressure of playing at ot and the big price tag. (i think that will not be an issue he seems pretty down to earth sort of guy. ) .
He is not quick.
He is sloppy in possession in the wrong areas. Way too often.

There are many better cbs but for 30m less the risk would be greater.
Im not his biggest fan but you know exactly what we're getting. And if he improves in a couple of those areas he could be a great partner for lindelof and shaw who needs a flea in his ear at times to keep him focused in matches.
If ole and the reports say he is the right character and potential leader of this young squad them that's worth Moore than 30m.
How good a player was JT or steve bruce or steve bould or the list goes on.
There are no other vvd out there available. Would koulibaly for the same money be higher risk. On balance i think so.
Its about a combination as defenders 1v1 most defenders will have negatives against them. Maguire is no different he is not perfect but who is.
Im looking for someone to stand out from the crowd in this young squad to be the leader. Most of our experienced squad members won't be on the pitch too often with the possible exception of matic so maguire could become the most experienced player out there. The voice the leader.
When you take all things into consideration he may well turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time. He looks the sort of character to me to go balls out and take on the challenge be thankful he has this opportunity.

Maguire is not perfect. The fee is ludicrous. But so was awb fee. If we spent 80 on maguire its lower risk than 60 on dias or the likes. They may have a higher ceiling they may have a lower fee but we don't know if they will be able to adapt straight away.

{Ed001's Note - the thing is Maguire is not a leader. That is a well known problem with him if you are expecting that. United should have done what it takes to get Godin. A couple of seasons of him, he would have been that leader and guided Shaw and Lindelöf, that gives you time to then find the right partner for Lindelöf.}

02 Jul 2019 19:37:30
I won't argue with that ed001. He would have been my choice for just those reasons.
By all accounts he is one of the big leaders in the england group. i'm entitled as a supporter to look for potential upsides.
There are a couple of candidates that could take up the mantle of leader at United as its there for the taking. Who wants to embrace that challenge. Who had the balls and persona to carry that off?
Despite what the doomsayers say it a great time to join united huge challenge but huge opportunity and rewards.

{Ed001's Note - I never saw any leader in the England camp at all. That was the big problem for me, they had no one to lead at all.}

02 Jul 2019 19:47:48
Vvd was not always foot perfect at celtic or Southampton and has had improved a lot under klopp. If maguire improves while he will never be a vvd he could well be very effective with improvement in certain areas. Sometimes players you don't expect to just work out. look at Gini windybum at Liverpool. You despised him as a player but he has worked out really well since he signed he improved in some key areas and has been a steady eddie for the last 3 seasons doing a really effective job.

{Ed001's Note - I never despised him, just thought he wasn't using his talents to the full. He was always good enough, he just never showed it. I remember him as a kid and he was outstanding and then just spent a career playing within himself except for 2 or 3 games a season. I find that annoying rather than something to despise. Oh and he was and is never going to be, a leader, just like Maguire.}

03 Jul 2019 10:09:51
I can remember getting told vvd was only any good because he played next to fonte.
Maguire will be a good fit at United.



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