Manchester United banter 80352


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15 Aug 2018 20:33:05
Hello Utd fans- as a Chelsea fan, I've seen your very good and fierce debates on Jose Mourinho and your marks out of ten for him, and I figured I might wade in with my opinion.
Firstly, I should say Jose Mourinho is a serial winner and he took my Chelsea team to heights I never imagined were possible. You can say what you like about the spending from Roman in 2004/ 05, but at the end of the day Jose brought the team together and created a winning unit. It's no surprise a lot of Chelsea fans still credit Jose to some capacity for our Champions League win because the core of that squad was still his team. At the same time, it is arguably the best defensive team to win the Premier League. And finally, we shouldn't forget his return heralded another Premier League trophy, the Carabao cup win against Spurs and a Champions League Semi Final loss. He also signed Fabregas and Costa, who were key components in that title win and were both important when Conte's team won the League as well.
Despite all this, I think it would be generous to score Jose anything over a five at United.
Okay, he won the Europa League, but with the squad you have and the budget you have, there is no reason you shouldn't have won it. if LVG had the same amount of time and backing, I think he would have done the same as the competition is really not very strong. I'll expect my team to win it this year because English clubs should be favourites in that competition considering their firepower and spending power. You won the Carabao Cup too, albeit in fortuitous circumstances against a pretty average Southampton side. At the same time, you've achieved consecutive Top 4 finishes, whilst other clubs have lurched from success to chaos- like Chelsea last year. But at the same time, it doesn't take a genius to realise that Jose is causing damage behind the scenes which will resonate for a long time.
Firstly, the fighting with the board. I still think this will be the downfall of Jose at every side he manages at because he always wants more. I think this is because he had so much purchasing power in his first spell at Chelsea and expects that at every single team. Obviously, the market has massively changed and I don't think he is really ready to accept that. But as long as he keeps criticising senior management and playing the blame game, he is never going to instil confidence in the boardroom. Some of his comments have, quite frankly, been embarrassing this summer and he seems determined to pit fans against Woodward in the same way he portrayed Chelsea as being his view vs. Emenalo/ Granavoskia.
Secondly, and this is really important, the behind-the-scenes structure. I imagine one of the reasons you are yet to appoint a DOF is because Jose would see them as treading on his toes. He frequently opposed and moaned about this way of working in Italy and at Real Madrid it was an almost constant gripe. At Chelsea, he managed to get rid of one of the best physios in the league in Eva Caneiro in farcical circumstance and I wouldn't be surprised if something similar happens at Utd if things don't go his way. The dressing room is also always a battleground- as many players will love Jose as hate him and you can already see that.
Thirdly, the squad structure. Jose might be frustrated at a perceived lack of spending, but since coming to Utd he has signed over £80m of defenders, over £100m of midfielders, over £80m of forward talent and your squad already had some talent in it with the likes of Mata, Martial, Valencia, as well as your world class goalkeeper David De Gea. I'm not surprised Jose has fallen out with Martial and Pogba because he doesn't like players that are inconsistent. I am confident that only one of Martial and Pogba, or Jose Mourinho will be at Utd after next summer. He wanted to sign Alderweireld, Perisic, Matic, Willian etc. because they are consistently 7/ 10 players in his view. He's reluctant to let younger players show their flair and guile- look at how he treated Salah and De Bruyne at Chelsea- and he'll always pick a player to scapegoat, often for no reason. Sometimes, this will make them- Joe Cole, Gonzalo Higuain, Oscar all fall under this category. But so far at Utd, all Jose has done is alienate players like this and the treatment of Luke Shaw at times has been little more than direct cowardly bullying. As long as Jose is your manager, I think 'flair players' (for want of a better word) will think twice about joining the club, especially considering how the likes of Eden Hazard and Arjen Robben talk about Mourinho's tactics.
Fourthly, youth. There's been a lot spoken on whether Jose has changed his view on this, but to me I see little evidence of it. He's playing Andreas Pereira, not because he thinks he is the solution to Utd's problem but because he wanted to protest to the board about a lack of signings. Dalot is a very strange signing and I can see him getting very little minutes as Jose trusts his experience too much. McTominay is a bit of an enigma, but again Jose rewards consistency. He has never been absolutely outstanding, but always solid, something very few youth players are. But don't expect Will Greenwood, Tahith Chong and Angel Gomes to be getting chances soon, especially seeing as the likes of Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe, both good enough to be squad players have been shipped out.
Fifth and finally, the style of play. As a Chelsea fan, I got used to watching us grind out 1-0s and this is something I don't mind so much as we've not always been synonymous with forward play. But with Utd fans being so used to Sir Alex Ferguson's swashbuckling attacking football, Jose's defensive, at times negative tactics will hurt. You'll win a lot of games, for sure, but you will also lose some badly and in some cases you will never compete in the match at all. Jose would rather draw a tough game 0-0 and take a point, than go for a win and risk losing it, that is just the way it is.
So overall, is Jose sending you in the right direction? In the short term, with a lot of cash, definitely. You might pick up a cup this year and you'll be there, or thereabouts come May. In the longer term, you'll end up with an aged squad, on larger wages, a split dressing room with egos and 'favourites', fans questioning the board's ambition and commitment, and some sleep inducing football. That's why he can only get a five at most, and why I think the Glazers will try and move him on next summer at the latest- he is hurting the Utd brand.
Of course, you might think I am talking total rubbish. But I would love to hear your comments, thoughts and arguments for and against my views.

Agree26 Disagree3

15 Aug 2018 21:00:46
Firstly, two words, paragraphs.

I appreciate the time you took to write this but we have done these arguments to death, there is nothing new we haven’t discussed. The one issue I do have with your post relates to youth. Lingard is a regular and Rashford played more games than any other player. Other than that, all accurate and all done to death.

15 Aug 2018 21:06:04
RE: Paragraphs. I had included them, not sure where they've gone.
Lingard is hardly a youth player, he's like 25 now and was already established in your squad by the time Jose turned up, and you can't convince me Jose trusts Rashford- why has he spent two years trying to sign a winger?

15 Aug 2018 21:24:50
paragraphs is 1 word.

15 Aug 2018 21:26:23
Good to see an outside view and Chelsea have more experience of him than us. We need a winger because we lack one on the right. Rashfords more of a striker.

15 Aug 2018 21:31:09
And i know this has been done to death but we have sanchez who has played on the right a lot in the past.

15 Aug 2018 21:39:10
Rj good post.

15 Aug 2018 21:42:49
Lol FZZ, no idea why I typed two!

15 Aug 2018 21:53:05
Good post that pal good read.

15 Aug 2018 22:15:20
Cheers Jred and Leahy12.

15 Aug 2018 23:21:46
Two words Tony, person 😉.

15 Aug 2018 23:43:45
I enjoyed that. I only wish Jose himself gets to read it 😆😆.

16 Aug 2018 01:47:42
I think this post by RJ28P is one of the best I've ever seen on the utd pages. Thanks fella for taking the time to give us your insight.

15 Aug 2018 23:58:30
Thanks for taking the time to post RJ, always insightful to hear from other fans who have experienced the enigma that is Jose Mourinho.

You make some well reasoned points, but there are a few things I must disagree on. The main point is regarding your comments on Jose playing youth players. As you very well know he has given most minutes to academy players. If this was pep, Klopp or Poch the media would be rejoicing how incredible they are. But because it is Jose, yourself and others always play this down by saying ‘oh Lingard and rashford have been forced on him or are already established’. It’s nonsense tbh. Jesse had his best season last year and really excelled in ways I never thought he would. Credit goes to both player and manager. You can’t praise pep for playing an academy player but then criticise Jose for doing the same thing.

We have some very talented youngsters coming through he have the potential to be great players. But they are simply not ready to be relied on as main players to our squad. Personally I think fosu mensah should have stayed but he is going out and getting a second year of invaluable experience at a premier league club. Chelsea are the worst at loaning of promising players and then selling for a massive profit. It is almost impossible to come through the ranks at Chelsea. The narrative is that it is jose’s Fault that De Bruyne and salah and Lukaku were sold. It’s garbage quite frankly. There is a inherent problem at Chelsea where they struggle to bring their own products through. Mainly due to constant changing of managers. I digress.

I agree the style is poor and it needs to improve. He needs to get more out of the current crop as there is some real quality in there. Although he has been given money to spend, he was not backed fully the way pep (last year) and Klopp (this year) have been. We needed a lb, Cb and rw. He just has to make do with what he has. I want to see the old resilient Jose of the first Chelsea spell back. That man was engaging, inspiring and supremely driven to win at all costs. I hope we see it. If not, we part ways and look elsewhere.

{Ed001's Note - no, it is because the stats are being skewed. He has given most minutes to 'academy players' not necessarily young players. Lingard is 25. You are only eligible for winning young player of the year or any other young player awards up until 23. So every minute given to Lingard that Jose fans are using to suggest he plays youngsters needs to be immediately discounted. You are praising him for playing a fully establish first team player because he came through the academy 7 years ago! Ridiculous. Utter joke and just shows the lengths people will go to in order to kid others. It would be as silly as lauding Fergie for playing youth team players when he brought back Scholes, after all he came through the academy.}

16 Aug 2018 04:49:52
I think it was a very good post. Thanks RJ for taking the time.

I think the team is under invested. More players should have been moved on and more purchased. Mourinho has clearly not been backed this window, last window he did not get Perisic.

If he had played Lindelof last year and Bailly every possible game he was fit, we might not have achieved second. Would we be in a better place now, maybe, players would have gelled better.

So here is the largest critique of Jose. Is he ever building a team for more than just this year. Is he creating experiences for players that may make mistakes this year, but will be better for it next year? I'm not sure he is.

But after last two years, I think he diserved a shot at making his team. Or, fire him and go a different direction.

Limbo is not ideal.

16 Aug 2018 09:06:14
Put it another way in response to our friend from Chelsea.

Would we swap Jose for Poch, Klopp or Pep - you bet we would! Sarri is unproven so I’ll reserve judgment.

16 Aug 2018 10:29:39
Pogba was also included as an "academy player" in those statistics.

Between Pogba and Lingard they make up over 60% of those minutes they were talking about.

Beyond them it was Rashford who played a significant number of minutes as a former academy player.

However, Rashford was an already established first teamers and Jose would have been crucified if he hadn't played him much.

After Rashford it was Scott McTominay, the lad picked to stick to stick two fingers up at Pogba.

After that no other academy player managed more than 180 minutes or two whole games in a 58 game season.

So in reality he played Rashford who was already established, and McTominay to prove a point. Hardly a glowing example of a manager who "trusts youth and gives them a chance".

RJ28P, I think that is an excellent and well written post. You have an outsider's perspective which is useful on this page which is often a little too enclosed. So it adds great perspective.

Nearly everything you have said I said myself before Jose took over and was given as reasons by myself for not wanting Jose in the first place.

However, this was met with people telling me Jose is the second coming of Sir Alex. We are his dream job and he will change and adapt to the "United way" play youth and offensive football.

Well we can see how that has played out.

16 Aug 2018 12:39:10
McTominay picked to stick 2 fingers up at pogba, shappy, please. Your anti Jose post are becoming embarrassing.

16 Aug 2018 08:30:14
Good to see a solid discussion emerging, thanks all for contributing and I'm glad some of you see the validity in my post. Park3lung as Ed001 has pointed out, those stats are already skewed. I would assume Pogba also contributes to them as well biasing it further. Ed004, would love to hear your thoughts on my post.

{Ed004's Note - I'll start by saying that the original post was a very good and refreshing post to see from a rival fan. Its always interesting to read what opposition fans think of our current situation and to actually elaborate on their points made to engage a debate and not a free for all.

Your point on Jose falling out with the board and players is hotly discussed topic on here. None of us our privy to what is going on behind closed doors. Furthermore, as the most supported and hated club united stories get views. The fact Stones and Sane have been dropped for long periods has received no media criticism whatsoever, yet Rashford who has made more appearances than any other United player under Jose should be looking to move for game time. Excluding Pogba and Martial every player that speaks about Jose praises him for his man management even players such as Blind who had no reason to big him up or Shaw who he has publicly stated. In regards to Pogba I've no sympathy for the player. I think he is our best outfield player but he has been wildly inconsistent and Jose has gone over and beyond to protect him. He has called out legends such as Scholes and attacked pundits such as Sounness. Martial I am a bit more sympathetic too. However, he is extremely lackadaisical on the pitch to the point where it even pisses me off. Theres hardly any fight there and his movement is appalling at times. Im really hopefull that both players stay and up there games.

With regards to signings, Jose has had to build a spine at the club. Pep walked in and had Kompany, Otamendi, Fernandinho, KDB, Silva, Aguero and Sterling there when he took over and still has invested more than Jose. You say Jose has spent big money on the defence yet Pep can field a back 5 with each player costing 50 million while Jose has Valencia and Shaw/Young as his options. He couldnt even get the board to sign Sandro. How much would KDB or Aguero have cost if Pep needed to sign those players that would be foundation of his side? Jose had no option to spend big on Pogba and Lukaku and this has been at the expense to other positions.

The football at the start of last season was very impressive, however, after Bailly and Pogba suffered long term injuries we began to struggle. Smalling and Fellaini/Herrera our good cover but youre going to struggle against top sides with them. We then started to grind out results something Fergie has done multiple times in the past. Andreas has always been rated by Jose who wanted him to stay last season and a player he messaged all last season with advice. Think he will be a key player this year and will allow us to keep Matic fit and fresh. Overall, I would give Jose a 6/7 out of 10 but without the support of the board, most notably in the past transfer window, I cant call how this season will go}

16 Aug 2018 13:17:47
How to put things into perspective 101: by Ed004. Lovely.

{Ed004's Note - Thank you}

16 Aug 2018 14:23:14
Got to say Ed004 I very much enjoyed that 😁.

16 Aug 2018 14:52:54
Ed4 pep walked in to a club that had a spine that included otamendi a player who had really struggled before pep.
Sterling a player that was ridiculed before pep
And fernadinho a player who has gone from decent to one of the best about .
All made a step up under pep . in fact all city's tip players are playing well from seasons pros like aguero to young lads lime sane to talented stars like KDB . good management that .
How many of United players are really at the top of there game?

United started to grind out results when Jose bottled it against the scouse .

We didn't improve over the season we got worse.

{Ed004's Note - A game that we played after losing Bailly and Pogba to injuries and had to play a back 5 with players such as Young, Darmian, Jones etc and our midfield consisted of Matic and Herrera (two defensive work horses not renowned for their abilities going forward). Correct me if I am wrong but was it played after a champions league game as well? So we are going to praise Pep for getting a cb that cost more than any of ours, a midfielder that cost 30 mill 5 years ago before the market got expensive and Sterling who cost more than all our attackers, except for Lukaku, for playing well with stars such as Aguero, Silva, Kompany and KDB..Bare in mind Pep didnt start playing good attacking football until he spent 100 million on two fullbacks. He had a far easier job than Jose. We cant even praise Jose for improving players such as Lingard, Lukaku, McTominay, Andreas etc}

16 Aug 2018 15:01:05
RJ, just read your post, and i was really intrigued by it. It is spot on in every way. You guys have more experience of Mourinho than us. Everything you posted is correct.
I have not been impressed with Mourinho and the past 18 months, he has alienated a lot of the players, had a go at the fans, and now he's picking fights with the owners.
But it is his managemen and tactics that are worrying me most. We seem to be a collection of good players with no proper aim. The players seem confused and some are frightened to make mistakes. We have no balance in the side and he's had ample time to sort this out. His methods are outdated and are not working.
The long-lasting damage it is doing to the club is pretty awful. We could be trying to sort this mess up for years after he implodes and leaves.
We are in a mess on the football pitch and the sooner he goes, the better.

16 Aug 2018 15:11:18
Terrific, measured response Ed004. Have to agree that Pep gets a very easy ride, along with Pochettino and Klopp from the English Media.

16 Aug 2018 15:29:14
No we are going to praise pep for doing an excellent job and producing a team that have broke EPL records playing great football.

Jose got ripped a new one on here and by every United fan I know for the set up against the mighty scouse . It was 1.9.1 .

How has Jose improved Andreas? He has spent more time away from the club than he has at it .

{Ed004's Note - Has any manager in the past ever tried to play Andreas as the deepest midfielder? The player himself has come out and said Jose spent time working on this with him and he has come back a different player. And fair play to Pep but without doubt hes been given a far easier ride by the media (more specifically the ironic media campaign of Pep or Money) and has far more resources than Jose has had. I dont think Jose has a done a perfect job and I am starting to worry about his relationships at the club but he has faced unrelentless scrutiny from both the media and his own set of fans. It doesnt appear that he can do anything right}

16 Aug 2018 16:24:19
Ed 4 in the 2 year Jose has been at the club Andreas has spent very little time at the club I don't see how you can his 1 good game in a competitive match is down to Jose.
It is massively clutching at straws.

Pep has faced just as much scrutiny the difference is he has answered any questions.

{Ed004's Note - Ok we wont agree with the Andreas scenario and no point arguing about something that will develop over the season. Itll just make one of us look stupid.
We will have to disagree with Pep. He didnt even get criticised for not putting a youth player on the bench when he was making a point, didnt get a ban when making a political statement and has frequently criticised the FA without any implications. If our manager did any of that there would be a petition for the House of Parliament to get involved to get him banned from the English Leagues}

16 Aug 2018 16:35:57
Houses of Parliament? A bit off the track there Ed002- I suspect a Royal Proclamation would be closer to the truth ;)

16 Aug 2018 17:26:11
Ed004 great posts. Really difficult to disagree with any of the points made. So a player in Andreas comes out and openly praises Jose for helping him develop but we can't say that Jose has developed him? Strange view.

Jred, I have openly admitted that I had to change my opinion of pep, wonderful coach, done a great job.

But surely we can't argue with what ed004 is saying above. He had better players when he went into the club than Jose and he has spent far more and got every target needed, something Jose can not do. We finished 2nd last season to a much stronger team who have spent a lot more money. I think it was a fair achievement given the fact there is no way Jose can compete with pep.

Undoubtedly pep gets a far easier ride too.

16 Aug 2018 18:19:29
Ed give Jose a 6 out if 10 that bit I would agree with ish.
I actually said 7 the other 10 .
But let's be honest 6 or 7 out of 10 is pretty average.

16 Aug 2018 18:11:18
Angle after a full season out on loan andreas come back has 1 good game against Leicester and it's all down to Jose.
Is the fact martial not playing well all down to Jose?

Pep has got all his players playing well is doing a fantastic job to simply say he had good players to start with (sterling otemndi etc ) is a joke.

Pep has done fantastic Jose ok no matter how much people want to beat the poor Jose drum .
He has had millions had time and took over a team that finished on the exact same points as city?

It's excusses.

16 Aug 2018 18:07:59
Ed004 great posts. Pep was allowed to build his squad in full. He tried and failed with the players he inheruted in certain positions. Faild badly won nothing.
But he completed his squad annd has done really well.
No other manager could have got 86 points with our squad last season imo.
Plenty of managers would have had us playing nicer fiotball but none would have got 86 points.
If shaw has a great season i wonder will jose get any credit?
If fred has a great season will jose get any credit?
My guess is a lot of people won't give him credit but that's just the way it is.

16 Aug 2018 18:13:03
He did get critised it was the back page of every paper .
But are you really complaing on media coverage now, because it's a poor second to what's going on on the pitch.

{Ed004's Note - I am complaining about media coverage because media propaganda has a massive impact on the public. You tell someone something enough and they will start to believe it. Im still surprised we finished second last year especially because of how poor we are. Its hard to believe we beat every side in the league at least once last season}

16 Aug 2018 19:13:38
Jerd, nobody has said it's all down to Jose? that'd be a riduculous statement, you're making up things to try and illustrate your point, weka when trying to have a sensible debate.

But if the player himself has come out and said Jose has really helped him improve why won't you believe that?

Again, the poor Jose drum? If you actually take the time to read and more importantly understand ed004s points, you will see he is simply making quite a fair comparison between both coaches situations.

And of course pep has done a fantastic job in getting his players to play to the best of their abilities but it is quite blatantly obvious that a) pep had a stronger squad to start with and b) could improve on the squad a lot easier than Jose.

I think ed makes some great points above.

We are not discussing who the best coach is etc. But the mere fact that pep had much more at his disposal. I don't think it's crazy. What's he spent at city? £600m. On top of what he already have, not bad.

16 Aug 2018 19:54:38
Angel pep took over a team that finished on the exact same points as United that's a fact .
Ed who bases there opinion on the media maybe apart from yourself if you really belive we are that bad . Second best squad in the epl imo .
We got 81 points last season so Jose couldn't get 86 either .

Pereira has spent 2 seasons on loan and has played 1 competitive game under Jose and played well and you want to put it down to Jose?
Jesus it's the same as pogba and linders being classed as minutes played for players coming through the youth . It's ridiculous.

The player himself said he has come back from his 2 loan spells in Spain a far better player . Which makes sense
And that Carrick has been a huge help in Guiding him on how to play the 9 role .

If he continues to improve great well done Jose put 1 game into a season for a player that has played for different teams for the last 2 year and people are desperately saying Jose this Jose that?

16 Aug 2018 19:57:10
When Shaw had a bad season he got constant abuse of the usally suspect on here . When he proves the haters wrong will it be all down to Jose.

16 Aug 2018 20:03:42
Carrick =help= 6 should be.

16 Aug 2018 22:47:46
So if a player plays badly its joses fault and if a player improves its nothing to do with him and it will be down to carrick.
When players like shaw and periera publicly thank and praise the manager for his help and encouragement you choose to ignore that but when pogba has a pop at the manager you suooort and try to justify it.
A player you constantly praised last year and as you keep telling us is englands number 1 and got into your fake wc 11 young. He has publicly praised the manager for giving him a new lease of life.
Lukaku praises the manager and credits him with improving his game.
Ddg has never chosen to leave and has backed the manager.
Lindelof has been full of praise in his recent comments.
All are improving or have improved under the manager.
He has big faults nobody denies that.
Its not happening as fast as many would like and our competitors have risen the bar. But honestly the likes of pogba and martial would do well to listen to the manager there is every chance that they and the team will improve if they do.

17 Aug 2018 09:24:42
Not at all Ken credit were it's due young and lukaku are good examples .

But some of your examples and the likes of Pereira are just childish attempts to paint Jose in a good light .
You in particular have absolutely tore players apart this season your now suggestion if a player does well it's down to the manager, after slating the player day after day .

Far more to it and it's just another stupid silly attempt to back a point of view .

17 Aug 2018 09:43:36
Which players have i tore into this season jred.
Ive been more supportive of players than you have of the mabager.
Do you want a shiney new toy for manager?

17 Aug 2018 10:55:30
We are only 1 game into the season you have plenty of time yet .

17 Aug 2018 13:28:00
So i havnt so more lies.
Do you want a shiney new manager to critisise jred?

17 Aug 2018 17:05:28
Ken yawn a meant last season .

No you have asked me about 20 times Jose should be our manager next season .
Lies lol anyone who reads the site knows the score.



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