03 Aug 2018 16:34:56
Question to all the Eds and posters. Most of the big clubs seem to have a transition plan lasting 2-3 years or sometimes longer. City have been building something for a good 6-7 years now, Real Madrid seem to have a 2 year plan and so do Bayern, pool seem to be building something too. with the post LVG plans scuppered are we thinking of something on these lines or are we just prioritising keeping on a manager for 3-4 years for continuity?
04 Aug 2018 02:46:23
Utd don't have any plans, just waiting around for the next crop of 8 superstars to emerge from the academy.
04 Aug 2018 08:36:50
Fergie ran the club pretty much from top to bottom for the 20 + years, have no doubts about that.
The football club went into a free fall when he left, like a school without a headmaster and only employing substitute teachers.
Moyes getting rid of the likes of phealan and meulenstein was a huge mistake.
I honestly believe that LVG would have brought great structure to the club and instead of screwing him like we did he should have been offered a DOF role as I think at his age he would have been happy working behind the scenes creating a footballing structure for the whole club, la masia type comes to mind.
I think this would have happened too if it were not for the toxics who I believe succeeded in cutting off their nose to spite their face when they got their wish.
I also could have seen allegri working under van gaal as a dof but alas we will never know.
We wanted instant success and unfortunately we're not prepared to let something blossom and grow.
There is no plan with Jose I feel, he is not that type of manager and that is not his fault. We wanted a winner, Jose is a winner, in my opinion corners are cut because of this, i. e. youth academy structure, potential transfers etc.
Problem we have is that this club needs a Dof, now may just not be the right time/ manager for this to happen.
I don't blame Jose for this, I blame the toxics.
{Ed001's Note - you know LVG acted in that role at Ajax for a while and they had to rip it up and start again after he was booted out? He made a complete arse of it.}
04 Aug 2018 08:54:16
Ah, the toxics. The fans may have been whining, but they whined during SAF’s first few seasons, however Edwards had balls and toughed it out confident he had the right man. I think Woody isn’t cut from the same cloth, and the pressure for instantaneous results is enormous nowadays.
To blame the fans is trite, United is a huge multi million pound brand, if the people in charge crumble on the face of some disgruntled fans then God help us all.
04 Aug 2018 09:09:55
100% ED and to be fair his ego probably caused him as much strife as it did success in his career.
And absolutely i may be wrong but i think van gaal seen Koeman as inferior to him. I think Van gaal's ego may have been tempered/ reigned in towards the end of his time at United, he was also at the latter stages of his career and knew United was his last chance at glory
Van gaal beleived Koemans Ajax were betraying the Ajax stlye and way of playing which I actually tend to agree with, given Ajax's downfall during this time and after van gaal was sacked, don't forget Koeman was sacked too shortly after. Although Zlatan and Van der Vaart are probably really to blame for this lol
Now i know Koeman had a great season or 2 at Southampton but Everton also stands out for me and the errors made there, mostly regarding transfers tbf.
I just think that Koeman was a lesser version of Van Gaal and i think Louis seen that.
{Ed001's Note - Koeman played the style of football that LVG set out mate. LVG decided the crappy style of play that Koeman continued with after going elsewhere. It was LVG's boring style that was being used.}
04 Aug 2018 09:15:48
Thats exactly it though AJH, after Fegie left the club had no-one with balls.
Your bang on in what was needed was a Martin Edwards, Gill i wish could have been that man but i think sometimes he is also given a bit too much Credit.
Its because of this that the toxics ended up getting their way.
This is not my opinion, this is fact, we had a succession plan re van gaal/ Allegri but the pressure of winning instantaneously and pressure from toxics changed this.
04 Aug 2018 09:22:02
The club overall need a strategy then a plan, if they have one it isn’t obvious. The only thing I can see is that the highly regarded McKenna was brought into the first team coaching arena perhaps the club have him in mind for an even bigger role in the future? I was pointing out the issues of transition before SAF retired but it seemed the club didn’t have a plan other than parachute someone in who had the right character rather than ability. I am sure Jose will have a plan but it will depend on whether it is short or long term and then whether the club supports it.
One point I will take up with you is the youth academy structure. We seem to have moved away from the previous aim of developing young players to sell them on for profit. Nicky Butt seems to have an aim, we seem to be bringing some very good young players on board from around the world, Puigmal for example. We have the current England under 17 captain James Garner who Carrick rates highly and made his debut on tour. I don’t know how much effort is put into local Manchester youth which is something City do strongly.
04 Aug 2018 09:30:20
I have to disagree with you on this Ed001
"Having previously worked together at Barcelona, where Van Gaal was coach and Koeman his assistant, the pair linked up again in 2004 at Dutch giants Ajax. At first, the arrangement seemed clear: Koeman was manager, Van Gaal was director of football. This meant Koeman had to handle all matters connected to the first team, like any manager would, while Van Gaal had to interact with scouts and attract new players. That way, Koeman could to focus on matches without having to worry about transfers.
Concluding transfers and making deals in the boardroom, that was Van Gaal’s job. He wasn’t supposed to stick his nose into Koeman’s training methods. Van Gaal started arranging meetings with Koeman to discuss tactics. Again, Koeman felt like Van Gaal was undermining his authority. Why was Van Gaal trying to tell him what to do? Wasn’t he the manager, and wasn’t he the one calling the shots when it came to tactics? "
Sorry i've taken the above from 442.com cause i couldn't be arsed typing this much to explain myself at this ungodly hour
Also on what a **** Koeman was.
"There is a slightly darker side to Koeman which is not widely known - for example his relationship with Louis van Gaal is terrible because of an incident that happened when Van Gaal in the early 2000s when Koeman was a coach at Ajax and Van Gaal was the director of boxers, " said Winner.
"There was a problem in the dressing room. Rafael van der Vaart and Zlatan Ibrahimovic basically were fighting the whole time. They just couldn't stand each other and Van Gaal as director of football came to Koeman and said, 'You have to get rid of them, I don't care who it is because this situation can't go on. Your call, your choice'. And Koeman got rid of Ibrahimovic.
"A short time later, after Ajax lost, I think it was to Bayern, his excuse after the game was that Van Gaal had told him to sell Ibrahimovic. Now, this is not the kind of incident that reflects terribly well on Koeman. "
David Winner, author of renowned Dutch football book Brilliant Orange.
That bits not from 442 but again I've pinched from Internet but this is how i have always understood what has happened. I'm not saying i know intrinsically but my aunt lives in holland, her husband used to youth coach at psv (very small role), i used to get to go to go to psv matches when i was a kid and he reckons Koeman was a **** aswell.
{Ed001's Note - Koeman is but that is not relevant. None of that is. You said LVG would play a different style of football if he had a choice. He wouldn't, Koeman played the way LVG wanted the game played. You are talking about something that has absolutely no bearing on anything I said and claimed you are disagreeing based on something that doesn't say anything of the kind. I can't be arsed, if you want to argue over nothing, don't waste my time with it.}
04 Aug 2018 09:31:25
It's just life after fergy .
People starting to see how good he was and how lucky we were to have him.
04 Aug 2018 09:46:01
Ed001 there is a big difference between arguinh and disagreeing. I am doing the latter
I never said anything about VAn Gaal playing a different style of football if he had a choice, (although obviously he would by the fact he disagreed with Koemans) I said that Van Gall believed Koeman was betraying Ajaxs way and style of playing.
Koeman clearly didn't play the way Van Gaal wanted if van gaal was starting to interfere in trainings and tactics as he did.
as for the below
'You are talking about something that has absolutely no bearing on anything I said and claimed you are disagreeing based on something that doesn't say anything of the kind'
I clearly had too many pints last night to be abe to decipher this sorry.
{Ed001's Note - whatever. Not interested. You are trying to start 'disagreements' when you are even admitting you haven't understood anything. Pointless talking to you. Copy and pasting other people's opinions when you haven't even realised they are utterly irrelevant just proves this whole conversation was useless.}
04 Aug 2018 09:49:48
United has no identity at the moment, or plan, we seem to be spending in hope rather than expectation, City had and still does have a real plan, United under Fergie had real plans, someone at the club needs to take the blinkers off and look at our traditions and history, but maybe the Ed and the Glazers are happy achieving top 4 each year.
04 Aug 2018 09:52:59
Also sorry if you think i'm arguing with you, i have followed the site for a long time and appreciate the great work you and all the eds do in making this one of the best football opinion sites around.
I'm not having a go, just disagreeing, this is my opinion, it may be wrong but its my own.
{Ed001's Note - I don't care if you are disagreeing or arguing, the point is you are not even discussing the same damn thing I was. You were so busy trying to prove yourself right, you never even bothered to understand what I said.}
04 Aug 2018 10:05:17
Your replies are out of order Ed001, i'm entitled to my opinion your entitled to yours.
What have I not understood other than your riddle I alluded to above. I have given a reason why I have copied and pasted these opinions rather than type, it was just faster and I have a terrible hangover. I have also clarified that I understood the van gaal scenario the same way.
I kinda don't understand your problem, is that I disagreed with you rather than just say sorry Ed your right I'm wrong?
{Ed001's Note - you didn't disagree with me, that was my point, but you keep saying you are. You just said Koeman was an arse too. You are just making an argument over nothing and continuing it because you still think it is relevant to anything.}
04 Aug 2018 10:08:20
You basically said lvg was tried as a Dof at Ajax and he made a mess of it. I was trying to provide some context as to why that did not work out and showing that it wasn't a purely van gaal made a mess of it kind of thing. I'm used to fleshing out and providing context for my opinions, sorry won't be so foolish to do so on here again.
{Ed001's Note - but none of it showed that LVG did not fail miserably did it? So you didn't disagree, but you keep arguing. And you are wasting my time. You still have not shown anything to say that LVG did not fail, just that Koeman was an arse.}
04 Aug 2018 10:21:25
Lol and your the one accusing me of arguing for the sake of it. If I am then we are 2 peas in a pod.
I never said lvg as Dof didn't fail at Ajax, I just tried to provide context of why he did fail.
04 Aug 2018 10:23:17
And by providing the context I was alluding to the fact that I obviously didn't think it was a given that he would fail in the same way as he did as Ajax if he were to have been given the position as Dof at united.
04 Aug 2018 10:26:55
Also koeman went to the Ajax board and basically said its either me or him boys. Van gall was sacked as DOF as he got on koemans tits for interfering and also apparently as lvg sold ibra to juve, but as I tried to provide context to earlier, koeman was actually the reason for 1 of zlatan or vdv being sold as well as the bad blood between the players.
04 Aug 2018 11:30:21
Rosspique- let it rest dude. We are all here due to the eds great site and their hard work. Don't bite the hand that feeds you huh?
04 Aug 2018 12:00:57
12 days this is what I posted above:
Also sorry if you think i'm arguing with you, i have followed the site for a long time and appreciate the great work you and all the eds do in making this one of the best football opinion sites around.
I'm not having a go, just disagreeing, this is my opinion, it may be wrong but its my own.
I posted an opinion, Ed001 disagreed with me, I didn't accuse him of wasting my time or invalidate my opinion like he did me.
I respectfully disagreed with Ed001, I didn't realise this was unacceptable.
I never set out to cause an argument with Ed001 but it seems I have, again I thoroughly respect yours and the editors works and I apologise if I have upset anyone.
04 Aug 2018 14:24:37
Moyes was an absolute disaster. LvG wasn't great, treated badly though. And I don't think Allegri would have worked out.