16 May 2018 17:09:59
Top post Shappy, it does appear that a lot of us are entrenched in our views (including me) .
Your point about the Museum is very relevant. Our history makes us who we are and at the risk of sounding like KLOOT, it sometimes feel like some people need to familiarise themselves a little more with our history. Just saying.
16 May 2018 18:00:05
So true - The manager is the first person that should take a walk through the museum. Remind him that he isn't managing Porto now and Man Utd stands for passion, energy, attacking spirit. He may talk the game, but he doesn't embody what the club stands for in the way he sets his teams up to play, nor how he handles himself more often than not.
16 May 2018 18:07:05
AJH, I think 99.9% of the fans know about our history. Our history isn't going anywhere. No one is expecting Jose to get a testimonial here so don't worry about tarnishing the history books. My main point in keeping the faith with Mourinho is, what's the point in changing a manager when we're on the ascendancy?
Our history is littered with tales of triumph in the face of adversity. Of never giving up, heart and determination to keep going until the final whistle. The club is prided on local talent and entertaining the fans. I get that the brand of football is poor. I watch every game the same as everyone, I'm not deluded. But more than anything else, when you think Manchester United, you think winners!
Football is littered with teams that entertained but failed to deliver. Ask Newcastle fans in the 90s., would they rather be a bit more defensive and win the league. Or attack and blow it? Liverpool three years ago, an inch away from winning the league but their ego got the better of them. Atletico used to be based on attacking intent, players like Aguero, Torres, Falcao, Forlan and Simone came in and turned them into a horrible team to play against and they won La Liga.
Don't under estimate how important the first title win after Sir Alex is. Don't underestimate how difficult it's going to be.
We're the most decorated club in England. We're built around winning leagues and the smart option would be to let Jose get on with it and history says he'll deliver. And when he strolls off to PSG and has left a much better squad than what he inherited, the new manager can shape the future of United without having the ticking clock of our last title win hanging over him.
{Ed0333's Note - good post mumbles it was an enjoyable read mate.
Your right Jose is not the long term solution, it wouldn’t surprise me if he rocks up in Paris in a couple of years. Your also right the guy is a serial winner wherever he goes he achieves success. Now the term ‘success’ is relative, winning the Uefa Cup and possibly winning the FA Cup in two seasons is a decent achievement in its own right but do Man Utd fans measure success differently? Personally I think he’s lost his touch and for me he’s a bit of a footballing dinasour but who knows with a few stellar signings in the summer he could be back to his irritating best? The only way you’ll find out is to give him one more season.
I’ll have to call you out on the bit about our ego getting in the way of us not winning the title under Rogers. Id say we were playing on fumes at the time, we had a good team but a weak bench which hampered us. Henderson getting sent off and his subsequent ban was a huge blow as he was one of the foundations of that run in and of course we didn’t have a plan B. So I would say it was more naivety more than ego that we didn’t win the title that season.
16 May 2018 18:49:40
Good post Mumboes, my beef was around a few comments in the last few days that suggested tradition doesn’t matter and that winning is everything. Not for me, never has been and never will be.
Ed, I’m with you re Jose but I’m repeating myself so I’ll move on.
{Ed0333's Note - No worries AJH
16 May 2018 18:58:47
Ive lived near Newcastle for a few year mumbles I've never met a Geordie who regretted the way Keegans Newcastle played, I've met a fair few who thought the decline was under dalglish who was much more defensive . Dalglish also got Newcastle to runners up but nobody remembers his team and never heard anyone yearn for him back.
Lots of the people think the decline was when the attacking football stopped and they have a point it was.
16 May 2018 19:07:43
It's all good AJH. I think we're all on the same page, just on a different paragraph. People don't like Jose, I 100% see why but another year is nothing in football and we have been improving.
Ed0333, I'll humbly disagree. That Chelsea game when you only needed a point was were you lost it. Jose set up with 11 men behind the ball. you didn't need to exert any energy. You could have sat back too knowing a point was enough and I guarantee you Chelsea wouldn't have even got out of their own half. Jose went there not to lose and Gerrard failing to control a 5 yard pass lost you the league.
We went to Blackburn needing a point to secure the title. Blackburn needed a point to stay up. They went 1-0 up. We got it back to 1-1 and for the last 25 minutes of that match, Blackburn didn't attack and neither did we. As a neutral I would have changed station. As an opposition fan I would have probably thrown a bottle at the TV. Sometimes the means totally justify the end.
{Ed0333's Note - not controlling a 5 yard pass doesn’t win or lose a Premiership title over the course of a 38 game season.
16 May 2018 19:13:22
Newcastle were fantastic, their problem was knowing when to be sensible. Instead they were gung ho every single game. As G Nev said, even in our prime there were still ugly games where we ground out a result, fortunately they were few and far between.
16 May 2018 19:20:38
Another very good post Mumbles I'm with you all the way.
Ed 333 - I'm not sure we can pack Jose off to the prehistoric era just yet. I hear the clamour for Pep and Kloop but their style of football is nothing new. Both have been showcasing their particular brand of football since 2008. They haven't reinvented the game or suddenly manufactured a new style of football. Both their styles are now well established in fact Klopp's last German title was back in 2012.
Since 2008 Jose has won a treble at Inter, league titles at both Madrid and Chelsea, a Europa League with Utd and that's not to mention the several cups I've omitted from the list. It's a pretty incredible catalog of achievements to be honest. His last league title was less than 3 years ago. Not bad for a dinosaur.
Ok I get the argument about style but in my opinion he's get unduly harsh criticism. It's a fallacy to suggest he's been over taken by younger, more forward thinking and modern managers, the facts simply don't back this up. There are no new kids on the block, there isn't a new revolutionary style of football, it's just good old fashioned football snobbery and a stick used to beat him with.
What brand of football you chose to watch is open to debate and preference but there is no right or wrong way to play the game. The only way Jose knows is the winning way which is evidenced by his incredible list of achievements.
{Ed0333's Note - I never mentioned anything about Klopp this was a Jose centric answer. What’s this got to do with Klopp? Did you not read the bit about me saying Jose is a serial winner and still could be in the future or do you want to make this into a Liverpool v Man Utd bitch fight because that’s what it seems like to me with your random redonculous arguments and left field examples. You can dress it up how you want but you play the lowest demonination of football possible, your style is turgid and mundane to watch, your a more expensive Burnley. One thing I will concur with you about is that football hasn’t changed you still have to score more goals than the opposition to win a game but how you put the ball into the net is of paramount importance to most football lovers.
16 May 2018 19:24:55
That's how we see it ajh but put yourself in their shoes, they have had average or cautious teams for most of the last 50 year. The team that went for it was the closest they got, we may believe if they had been more cautious they would have won a few more points but they see it as they won as many as they did by having a go and attacking . Even yourself will remember little or nothing of the Newcastle team under dalglish but you'll probably always remember the Keegan one.
16 May 2018 19:30:18
Of course not ed0333, but when you're leading the league table with 3 games to go, those other 35 games are irrelevant. A point wins you the league against a team that is more than happy to share the points with you and Rodgers and Co blew it.
{Ed0333's Note - nobody’s saying we didn’t blow it but I don’t think it was ego that lost us the title like you say.
16 May 2018 20:21:12
I think you were a bit unlucky too ed0333
Great post mumbles.
Good post too beast. I don't agree with you but i understand your point of view.
16 May 2018 20:23:29
Sorry Ed no I didn't intend to pick an argument. I used Klopp and Pep just to illustrate a point about style. You referred to him as a footballing dinosaur the point I presumed you were making was that his style of play was outdated and no longer relevant. I was just trying to point out that Pep and Klopps style of football is nothing new and Jose has had sustained success over this period therefore I think it's premature to suggest he's lost touch and write his obituary just yet. I was just trying to add some context to your comment suggesting he may be past his best.
I apologise if my post came across as argumentative or hostile this was not my intention I was just trying to put some context to the old style over substance debate. Maybe I miss interpreted your comments for which I apologise.
What I will say is your comment about being an expensive Burnley is an example of the football snobbery I was talking about. I would imagine what's of paramount importance to most football lovers is seeing their team win. I certainly think Burnley fans will be ecstatic about the season they've just had.
Anyway it's all about opinions and I respect your point of view. I'm sorry if I started an argument that I didn't intend or caused any offence.
{Ed0333's Note - No worries pal, let’s just put it behind us.
16 May 2018 20:27:20
Point taken mate. We'll bin ego and go with naivety then hahaha.
{Ed0333's Note - I’d buried that friggin ‘slip’ until you lot bought it up again today lol.
16 May 2018 20:37:53
Delete my last post Ed I don't want to carry anything on maybe I misunderstood your comments and didn't take the time to read them properly nevertheless it was never my intention for the post to come across as anti Liverpool. I certainly don't want to cause any animosity or Ill feeling. I respect the job all the Ed's do on this site. I hope we can just move on.
{Ed0333's Note - it’s all forgotten about mate.
16 May 2018 20:39:09
Mumbles, you say one more year won't hurt but that very much depends on what happens during that year.
If Jose sells Shaw, Martial, Rashford and Tuanzebe this summer and brings in Willian, Perisic, Alex Sandro and Bonucci all on high wages and long contracts would you say that he hasn't damaged the club?
Selling our future for a few aging stars because they have "consistency".
I'm not saying all those youngsters will leave, but Jose hasn't signed a player under the age of 22 then played them consistently since his Chelsea side signed Robben.
He doesn't give young players a chance, the average age of his signings during his career is 29.7, almost 30. When he leaves he leaves behind a squad often filled with players just past their best and under developed youngster because he doesn't play them.
I don't think the club will get rid of Mourinho this summer, but I do wonder if next summer they will regret that.
He isn't a good fit for us and in my opinion the longer you drive in the wrong direction the longer it takes to get back on track.
I don't see Mourinho as a manager to lay down foundations, so unless he is is the longer term plan I don't see the advantage in keeping him.
I guess we'll all see what happens next season.
16 May 2018 21:08:15
Its an age old dispute ed does the how matter, it duz to me it's as important as the outcome but others see it different, I enjoy their posts as they make me consider am I correct .
I think this utd side will be erased from memory pretty quickly but that's me
I get we have some players, infact more than some who really aren't good enough for utd and I agree with people in most of their names . The problem I have is the managers guys are no worse or better than the last guys men .
To me this next season we need new fullbacks, although I'd like to see what their instructions are first, a CB, ours are all ok and smalling is a scapegoat, two midfielders, to replace Carrick and hopefully Fellini and a right sided attacker where the disparity between ourselves and others is huge and I have no idea why this is largely unmentioned.
16 May 2018 21:51:39
Good point Shappy. I didn't know those stats. All i'll say in regards to the younger players, they're not doing it at the minute. Rashford and Martial if they stay need to push on and make themselves unsellable. Shaw is a lost cause and Tuanzebe is a long way off starting in the first team of a squad that has title aspirations.
17 May 2018 08:50:54
Mumbles, how much of the struggle our young players are going through can be attributed to how the team is playing?
Very few youngsters make the breakthrough in pragmatic teams. The defend first attitude is not ideal for young players who will make mistakes. That for me is the biggest reason why Jose has struggled to nurture many young players during his career.
Martial and Rashford are offensive players trying to learn and perfect their craft while feeding off of scraps. Strikers have a habit of remembering their misses more than their goals. When your only going to have one or two shots a game though misses are likely to be playing on your mind for a long time. It's clear that Rashford especially has become greedy due to him needing a goal.
Shaw is an offensive full back who is being berated for attacking.
These lads are not being given the chance of the environment to succeed.
When Ronaldo first came to our club we had him and Rooney as young kids. They both have the ball away a dozen times per game, both made bad decisions. But they were afforded the time and opportunity to make those mistakes so they could learn from them. The worst thing you can do to a kid is drop him for several games after a mistake. How is he supposed to learn from it if he doesn't experience the same situation again to try something different.
I think we have some excellent young players who should be in the side more often.
Martial and Rashford are amount our top four players for goal contributions. Along with Lingard and Lukaku. So our top four players for creating and scoring goals are all 25 or younger. Sanchez and Mata are way behind having played a similar number of minutes or more.
Imagine where they could be if they weren't feeding of of scraps in a team that tried to score more than one goal a game.
Shaw hasn't let us down in any game this season. In fact when he had a run of 4-5 game by the 4th and 5th game he was putting in man of the match performances. Yet he was then dropped because he was showing Jose up. Tuanzebe completely marked Sanchez out of the game last season. He has also never made a mistake or let the side down when he has played. In fact on more than one occasion he covered for his more experienced team mates, clearing up their mistakes.
Those four along with Lingard would give us a core group of 5 young lads three of them local boys who we could build our future team out of. A team that could challenge for the top prizes and allow us to win the Manchester United way. Yet how many of them will still be here by the time Jose leaves remains a very real worry.
17 May 2018 14:37:36
Shappy, I agree with much of what you are saying and we share the same aim of seeing Man Utd playing attacking expansive football with belief and passion.
Where we're differing is that I no longer beieve we are ready for that just yet. I think Mourinho might be a dose of medicine we need to clear out a lot of sub par players and try to instill a more winning mentality.
The last years of Fergie and then Moyes and LVG set the team back a long way. Jose could be the guy to have a purge. However, I share your concerns that he will bring in too many older players.