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10 Jan 2018 01:45:35
It seems Red Man is stuck in 2010-2013 and unable to come to grips with the present.

The Glazers are at fault for United's fall from grace post 2013. But "no ambition" and "not spending enough money" are absolutely not the reasons to justify that statement.

The reasons are the following :
1. Ineptness to manage the transition post Ferguson.
2. Letting Sir Alex choose his successor
3. Appointing two poor managers (and perhaps a 3rd unsuitable one too) who were never right for the club.
4. Allowing Gill and Ferguson to go at the same time.
5. Not appointing a Director of Football to work with Sir Alex in his last couple of years to have a long term transition plan already in place once he leaves, where the DOF would have been involved with the board to buy players to fit a particular philosophy and appoint a manager after Ferguson who fit that philosophy.

Its not "ambition" or "spending" that's the issue but mismanagement and a clear lack of experience in managing transitions between managers and long term planning that's the issue. The reason for that is clear as well. Its because they never had to do it while Ferguson was around. He was the DOF himself and managed the football side of the things. Transitioning between managers, having a process to search for a new one was never required. Other clubs do this regularly and are already experienced with it.

THAT is their fault. They've spent the money and have shown the ambition but they appointed the wrong men to invest it and didn't have the proper structure at the club in place to imolement it. That's where their fault lies and they should be blamed for it. Perhaps not getting the likes of Txiki at the club is their biggest mistake.

So Red Man. Please stop with your relentless agenda. Its gotten a bit boring and your assertions contradict the evidence. We've spent more than enough to show ambition. The numbers don't lie.

Its clear to me and most people on here that you simply make your conclusion and later try to fit evidence into it. You made up your mind on Moyes even before he had officially started. It was the same with LVG. You clearly fawn over Jose while most are pretty ambivalent and do agree that he's been a bit hit and miss and has made mistakes but you see pretty much no wrong and are barking up the wrong tree of spending. And you've had your mind made up about the owners and seem to see a lack of spending and ambition even though the evidence doesn't support your conclusions.

P. s. It seems to me that Jose doesn't want Sanchez. We've bought far more expensive players than him in the last 4 years on comparable wages. Not going for Sanchez has nothing to do with the owners but Jose preferring a different player. Sanchez and Malcolm are today to you what Pastore was back a few years ago. I remember you moaning on here for days. A player whom the manager wasn't interested in but suited your agenda of beating the drum of "lack of spending" and "ambition".

Agree13 Disagree8

10 Jan 2018 05:15:40
Couldn't agree more, excellent post.

Poor decision making top-bottom and flittering money away all the while. We have missed a golden opportunity to pull away from the competition. Wasted opportunity infuriates me more than anything.

10 Jan 2018 06:30:03
Very good post. In fact this should be pinned at the top of this page for a while.

10 Jan 2018 06:40:46
REDFAITH

You make some good points, ones which I have made on here before, but you have summarised them well. However seem to spectacularly misunderstand ambition.

Most if not all clubs have ambition, but it is the level of ambition that differs. Teams in the championship have ambition, to get in the play off, be promoted. Teams in the premier league relegation zone have ambition to stay up, mid table teams to improve, get to a European place, the top four.

There are teams whose aim is to TRY to win the league and or a cup.

Then there are teams who want to dominate, win European cups, Madrid, Barca, Munich, PSG and now City. They don’t talk about cost, they have an aim, an ambition to dominate in their own leagues but in Europe as well. I do not see that in us.

What I do see is the ambition, the burning ambition to maximise the asset value whilst trying to show ambition to win the big trophies and that is the next level, albeit small level down to the big boys and now even to City, it shouldn’t be. If we can have the best asset value without being the best team why spend more is what seems to be the view

Do get your facts right on lvg, for me it was not the same as with Moyes, I had not “made up my mind before he started”. Moyes yes, knew it would be a disaster but lvg I have had stick on here recently for supporting him, do check before making sweeping statements.

10 Jan 2018 09:00:24
Red Man what a lot of twaddle. That is blatantly just twaddle, twaddle, twaddle. Choices where made they didn’t work out.

Red faith has not questioned the clubs ambition one bit but has only questioned why you keep beating a boring old drum. This club will always be ambitious, it is ingrained in the DNA of its traditions although LVG did has damnest to play that down because he couldn’t hack it as manager, now Jose is sailing on the same boat.

One thing Maze does agree with you in though is you did sheepishly follow LVG and claim that he was a major success over Moyes. Again though that is nothing to be proud of because LVGs stint at United was a shambles.

10 Jan 2018 09:56:00
Redman what level are you talking about, let's city for eg as you seem to love their owners. Last season they bought sane, gundogan and bravo when likes of Neymar, pogba and keepers much better than bravo would have been available. Are they penny pinchers too, fact is guardiola's buys have worked out a lot better than mourinho's.

Had it not been for atletico getting a ban we would have spent as much as city did, it isn't the Glazers fault that mkhi turned out to be a dud or that ibra lasted only a season or lukaku being a ftb they paid for what Mou wanted. Yet because you love mourinho he can't be blamed for anything.

10 Jan 2018 11:19:46
Good post Red Faith you make some excellent points but I also agree with Red Man. Now bear with me and I will attempt to explain why.

There is no doubt the Club has spent heavily since Fergi retired but think of this. The season he retired we finished as Champions. The Club appointed Moyes on a 6 year contract but our only summer signing was Fellaini in an embarrassing deadline day fiasco! Call it Woodward's inexperience, incompetence or a combination of the two that was a pretty disastrous first transfer window especially with a new manger at the helm. I have no doubt that Moyes gave the board his lists of targets and them failed him spectacularly. They approached that window with the same naivety and arrogance as previous ones and why spend money when you've just won the league by 13 points? Well what about trying to win the Champions League! That's the ambition or lack of it that we're talking about!

Moyes reign was equally as bad at that first window which ultimately set the tone for a manger and chairman hopelessly out of their depth. This has now cost the Club millions trying to remedy.

For the Club to remain marketable, attractive to investors/ sponsors and profitable we must be playing Champions League football. Whilst the Glazers know nothing about football they know business. An extended spell outside the top 4 would be disastrous for our revenue streams.

Call me cynical but this is my view on our spending. For the Club to get back into the top 4 they realised they had to invest in the squad and I can't argue that they haven't done this. Now Jose can't argue that he hasn't had money to spend. He has. But given the fact that City already had a superior squad has he been given enough money to first of all bridge that gap and then make us better? I'd argue not! He delivered in his first campaign, won us two trophies and got us back into the Champions League. Now this is my point about ambition. This was the summer to go again and really back Jose in the market. He stated that he wanted at least four players. If truth be known he probably wanted more but even Jose understands Glazernomics!

The board didn't deliver on even his minimum requirement whilst City spent well over £150m on three full backs and a goalkeeper, addressing their weak points and significantly improving their squad. We haggled over the price of Perisic and we missed out. In my opinion they decided we were back in the top 4 and didn't see the value in spending £50m on a player in his late 20's. Where have we heard this before?

City are 15 points clear at the top, they have one foot in the final of the League Cup yet are still aggressively pursuing Sanchez, one of the best players in the league to make them even better knowing that he could come for free in the Summer. Would our board in this position do the same thing? That is the difference in ambition we're taking about.

One Club wants to dominate whilst the other is content with their position and continues to search for value in the market!

Why as fans should we not want our Club to spend money that has been generated by our own means. If it's not spent on transfers then it's only lining the Glazers pockets and I know which I'd prefer. Come on chaps if we want to be the best then surely we've got to spend like them!

10 Jan 2018 12:33:53
And every one laughter at city overspending on overrated players.

But city are playing so now we have to spend more more more .
Even tho we have spent a very large amount of cash .

I wonder if city hadn't spent as much if our problem would still be we haven't spent enough?
Strange thing is if you listen to the sharkpod United's main target is savic who is going to cost mega cash . Yet we have no ambition because we haven't signed Sanchez?

Maybe the club have a plan, have spent a lot of cash, are going to spend a lot more . But they don't want Sanchez a player that doesn't seem to want to play for United and will be 30 next year .

Maybe want bale or griezmann or someone like that .

Is the issue the club doesn't spend money, doesn't sign players or is it the club hasn't signed the players certain fans want?

I know we are a full week in to the January transfer market and all our rivals have bought the best 10 players in the world .
But come on boys keep your chin up, we should stay up this year ;)

10 Jan 2018 13:01:37
Danny

Good points

Let’s not forget that Woodward said in 2013 that the team didn’t need any significant Re-tooling. How was that level of ambition comparable to being the best in the world? Ok we won the league but didn’t get near in the UCL and then he delivered Fellaini.

10 Jan 2018 13:02:19
That is a great post Danny🙌🏽. You have summed it up perfectly and I think the difference in ambition is clear to see between our owners and city’s owners. One wants to dominate football and create a dynasty. The other is happy with being back in the top 4 and making huge profits on sponsors. I think we can all agree there is not much difference in ambition between pep and Jose. But one is being backed to the hilt and the other is being backed but not as much as he would like. Interesting times because in the premier league we seem to be the only side that can stop city dominating for years in my opinion. Chelsea have a good squad and team but their transfer policy has changed and they will not go out and back Conte the way city do with pep. We really have to get the right players in this summer otherwise we will be left behind. We need to match the manager’s ambition and if we are unwilling to, then there is not point him being here in my opinion.

10 Jan 2018 12:53:40
Dany moyes was an inept idiot, moyes who decided to play FIFA with his targets like wanting ronaldo and bale and fabregas who we knew had no chance of signing rather than signing likes of thiago which utd had already done the groundwork for.

And in the same vein as you said we have spent 160 million on 3 mf's in last 3-4 seasons and by the looks of it are willing to chuck 100 million more on another one, pep wanted a defence mourinho wants a mf nothing earth shattering to it. City are pursuing sanchez but even they seem to have put in financial constraints to what they will spend on him in jan.

Everyone keeps mentioning perisic as if he would have solved what ails us right now, his stats in Serie A this season are 20 apps 1800 mins 7 goals and 6 assists to Martial's 11 (9) apps 919 minuted 7 goals and 3 assists in epl, how exactly would he have improved us, if anything we would have been worse off given martial will actually improve in future while this season and last season have been perisic's best ever performances since his days in the belgian league.

10 Jan 2018 13:43:06
Totally agree Park!

CSM - The point about Perisic is not if he is a good player but rather the manger identified him as a key target and the board didn't deliver. There can be no doubt that the Club didn't want to pay the asking price probably due to his age. The board didn't fulfil the mangers minimal requirements and we should be asking why not? He probably wanted another LB, CM and back up RB is a perfect world. I think even Jose understood this was unrealistic it he expected them to deliver his targets. How do you propose that we over take City if we're not even prepared to match their spending? We either want to be the best or we don't! Yes money can be wasted and mis spent but without it your left hoping for miracles. Just look at Spurs. Potch has done a great job but there a million miles away from winning anything and won't get anywhere close unless they change their philosophy. They'll do well just to keep hold of their players never mind improve their squad. Don't forget Pep won nothing last season and he's spent another small fortune getting the players he wanted. We shouldn't fool ourselves unless we're prepared to at least match the likes of City and PSG then our glory days will be few and far between. Do we want to be the best or not?

10 Jan 2018 14:41:44
We should of just spend 50 million more on pogba lukaku and lindelof then we would of spent more than city .

As for perisic maybe inter didn't want to sell or the club simply didn't think he was worth the asking price? Or do we just pay any amount of money that the club ask .

What if we had bough perisic and he got injured first game of the season? Would that if been our title challenge over right there, because he is that good .

What if we do some really good business this summer and identify some really good players that don't cost 150 mil each . Will every one be up in arms because we haven't shown any ambition .
Let's hope Jose doesn't give one of the kids a chance, when he could just be spending 60 mill on someone else . Can you imagine the lack of ambition then .


Seems it not about the player we buy but the amount he costs.

10 Jan 2018 14:58:17
We have also added lingard and Rasford to the team . But they didn't cost anything so don't seem to count.

10 Jan 2018 15:40:29
I think the issue with us not going for Sanchez is that he predominantly plays from the left and we already have Martial but more importantly rashford.

I think Jose is well aware of what would happen if he got rid of Rashford to accommodate Sanchez.

Lukaku is always going to play and therefore the only spot that Rashford gets a look in is wide left as on the right he is less effective.

Martial is the better player, but because Rashford is a local kid and considering our youth traditions I think Jose feels that Rashford has to play. If Sanchez came on board that wouldn't happen nearly as much because then you would have two players in Rashford's two positions that are better than him.

10 Jan 2018 16:11:57
Danny do you think fernandinho and an injury prone gundogan are what pep wants as his mf's or are his favorite cb's stones and otamendi, he seems to have adjusted to it well enough.

Also utd seemed happy enough to spend 89mn on griezmann may be it is mourinho who needs to pick who he wants more carefully, because in no world can you go from no 3 on Balon d'or award list to perisic that's like going from Ronaldo to Valencia and we know how that went. This back the manager come what may has lumbered us with likes of darmian, blind and rojo, perisic would have only added to that list.

10 Jan 2018 17:53:46
Hi all its Mike you favourite Moston Red

Okay I’ve read a lot of what's been put on here over the past few days and feel the need to speak

I get your all up in arms at the moment, over let's face it the bile churning prospect of them lot winning the lot. The Glazer blame brigade are out in force again, yawn yawn yawn. The blame everybody apart from Ferguson etc brigade are out in force again, I could go on and on.

We are second in the league, would we be bringing the Glazers in to it again if Chelsea were top and running away with it like they were last year, Probably not. The fact of the matter is Guardiola’s philosophy appears to have clicked all of sudden with the acquisition of full backs who have sensational recovery runs in them. This is exactly what they lacked last year with Zabaletta and Kolarov not up to it. They’ve blazed a trail that none of us could match. Not just Jose, I’m talking Klopp, Conte, Pochettino etc. Anyway enough sunshine blown up their you know what.

January. What serious business is done in January, other than the odd sensation here and there. We signed Mata that year on the back of the embarrassing transition and transfer window in Summer 2013. I don’t realistically expect anyone to be brought in, but you never know. It can upset your squad as we know. We all remember the Asprilla signing at Newcastle that year.

I get sick of hearing about City are leaving us for dead etc. Well if they are we are not on our own. United has an infrastructure that is up there with the best there is. We have state of the art training facilities, that were there long before the Emptysad Campus in Beswick. They had to spend billions to just get near us in that respect and will have to spend more to get near us in terms of honours.

I think a lot of people here are emotional wrecks at the minute over nothing. Manchester United are a very well run football club, that makes a lot of money and money has been proven over the past few years to be spent. You can’t level that at the owners. They have probably spent close to Citys and Chelsea’s owners.

We are not going to win the league every year now its over, get over it. City won’t win it every year or Chelsea or Liverpool etc. I was glad we won the cup in 2016 and the trophies we won last year. So if we don’t win anything this year, we won’t be the only club.

Jose is no fool and it’s a brave man or woman who thinks otherwise. We lost Pogba for important periods this year and any team losing him, it would have a big impact. He’s back fit now and there are still 2 trophies to win as well as a top four spot to play for. We may yet finish the season with our cheeky grins in tact.

10 Jan 2018 18:47:43
in all honesty, should have gone for Giggsy instead of Moyes. Moyes I feel tried to do way too much too soon with the back room staff for example and this backfired. I feel Giggs would have tried to maintain as much as the same structure Fergie had in place. to make matters worse they went for LVG straight after and he was a total let down. The sad state of affairs is Mourinho is still stuck with LVG's deadwood and I think he summed it up from day one where he said he wished he started from zero instead of the squad he had inherited.

10 Jan 2018 20:54:05
Maze -Mazey- Maze you my fella are wired up in a different manner than the rest of us . You wouldn't look out of place in Royston Vasey you looney I'm guessing with some of your posts 😆😆.







 

 

 
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