04 Jan 2018 09:15:48
Rumours this morning that Jose is unhappy and jetting to and from London whilst still living in a hotel in Manchester. Interestingly, Guardiola has bought an apartment in Manchester, not sure where his family are but I would have thought an apartment was a better bet than a soulless hotel.
Love him or loathe him it seems things are progressing, Jose unhappy with our investment, owners unhappy with his comments, Jose not happy in Manchester. I guess a good run of a few wins might make everything seem different but there does seem to be a public game of chess being played right now.
I still think we will finish 2nd (sorry Stand) with a chance of a Cup and with the right investment will continue to progress. However I do wish all the noise and hullabaloo would go away and Jose would lighten up a tad.
04 Jan 2018 09:49:43
Tony, This is one of the reasons I was never sold on Mourinho. He brings the circus with him everywhere he goes. He is constantly posturing and looking for fights.
Things are now starting to come to a head. I could understand him living in the hotel to start with, even this season. If his family aren’t going to join him as his kids are settled and in education then I understand why he wouldn’t want to buy a place. It makes financial sense. However, I also agree that it must be tiring and straining on him to not be with his family and to not have a place of his own. I can see why that would make him unhappy.
Jose also has one of the biggests ego’s in world football, and the idea that not every member of the board wanted him will surely grate on him. Maybe because of that he feels he isn’t getting the backing he feels he deserves. Even though he has spent 295 - 310m in 18 months.
He has an ongoing feud with Pep which I’m sure is eating him up inside with how well Pep and City are doing at the moment. I expect a lot of the tension in his press conferences possibly comes from his view that the press “love†Pep. Sort of the friends of his enemy are also his enemies.
I think we are seeing the beginning of the end with Jose sadly, as even though I was never a fan of signing him and can still appreciate what he has done for us.
For me though things are starting to turn a bit sour.
04 Jan 2018 11:33:28
If your board do not support you or have less ambition then it will be a problem
Perhaps the board will get rid, much to the delight of some, and appoint someone with less ambition who won’t push or ask for money.
Perhaps the friction is due to differing levels of ambition and if that is the case we should be very concerned. If Jose leaves I won’t believe any family type reasons but would be concerned that it does confirm our concerns about our own boards ambition.
I do not blame Jose for pushing, he isn’t a long term appointment, he comes in and wants to win, needs support to do it. For too long we have drifted never really making a concerted effort to knock Barcelona or Madrid off their perch, just the Scousers.
The board need to back Jose or answer what their real goals and ambitions are.
04 Jan 2018 11:40:25
Jose has been backed, but some of his signings don't suit his system/ have been poor and inconsistency compared to Pep.
04 Jan 2018 12:06:26
Couldn't agree more Redman. We bought 3 players and he desperately wanted a winger and left back. But the owners and their puppet, Woodward, argued over prices.
The owners are more interested in money than keeping the football side up to scratch.
I'm not a big mourinho fan. But if his ambition is not matched by the owners, then God help us.
04 Jan 2018 12:14:39
Red Man, Only Pep at City has spent more money in the same time frame than Jose has, ever in world football. Being the second most financially backed manager of all time hardly sounds like he isn't being backed does it?
For me the timing is off.
January is notorious for being a tough window to buy in. Very few January signings do well and even fewer make a difference immediately. In the last 25 years only Evra and Vidic have really done well for us out of our January signings and both took until the start of the next season to truly start to do well. The league is in reality gone which leaves the UCL and the FA cup as our best hopes of winning something this season. Even if we ignore the fact that most January signings don’t do well until the following season we also have to contend with most potential top signings will be cup tied for at least one of these competitions.
So why pick a fight with the board now? If he’s lucky the board will give in and he will spend a January premium signing an at best above average player who is unlikely to make any difference to this season. If he was picking this fight in the build up to the summer transfer window I could understand it more, to do so now doesn’t make much sense.
For me it feels more like he is just putting it out there that he isn’t very happy at our club, and to do so just as we approach a transfer window when his agent will likely be meeting with many of the people in charge of those other top clubs seems like he is fishing for interest.
I know you're an ardent supporter of Jose, but does a leopard change its spots?
Jose has always looked out for himself, case in point when winning the Europa league with us last summer he tried to make it all about HIM winning a “treble†rather than OUR club winning the one trophy missing from our set, or the players turning a poor season into a winning one.
If Jose is picking a fight with the board it is because it is in Jose’s interest and not the clubs or the fans. Yes the Glazers have allowed the club to slide with a lack of investment, but under Jose and to an extent under LvG the owners have backed the managers with many signings including breaking the club record signing 3 potentially 4 times (if we end up paying the 15m in add ons in Lukaku’s contract) and the world transfer record once.
04 Jan 2018 12:46:30
Shappy
Actually I am not Jose’s biggest fan, I wanted Pep after Lvg but I wanted someone with burning ambition, someone who wants the club to be at the very top not just competing
If Jose wants to put us at the top of world football he might do it for himself but so what if it gets us there. I have had to go into businesses to introduce a step change with the aim of making them the best in class. I was driven by my own ambition to get them there but so what if it got them there
Too many maintain this fancy ideal about how nice managers should be and how much money we spend, whilst Madrid and Barcelona win European cups. We finally get a manager who is probably more driven than SAF to win those trophies but could replace him with someone less ambitious and less demanding yet will keep a few happy with pretty football
When we don’t win the European cup for years, again, there can be no complaints.
04 Jan 2018 12:46:54
Shappy, could it he is aware of that he is aware of the issues facing new signings and with the league all but gone wants to get some of his summer targets in now so they have a bedding in period with less pressure than normal as realistically we are not expected to challenge for the Champions League this year.
04 Jan 2018 12:51:58
Just for the sake of an argument or opinion.
Who do you want as the manager if Mou was to leave at the end of the season?
04 Jan 2018 12:57:23
Yes the club has spent a lot of money but as someone said above most signings don't fit the system. So are they Jose's signings? I don't see him signing square pegs.
Regards the owners to quote someone else its like the owners are trying to build a Ferrari but by buying cheap parts an then putting it out on the race track with a cautious driver to try and grab whatever prize pot he can.
And James Ducker of the telegraph says Jose an agent have been talking about a new contract for the last month.
04 Jan 2018 13:04:13
Its not just about the money that has been spent, look at the players that have been let go. To buy the best players, you pay the premium price and we have done that in the past 2 summers. But just look at the current squad and how many of them would you actually want to stay at the club. Smalling, Rojo, Shaw, Blind, Darmian? that's the entire defence that can be bettered. Move into the Midfield, If we leave out Pogba and Matic, clearly Fellaini wants to leave. Then you have an aging Carrick. Herrera who has gone backwards this season and then a youngster in McTominay. How can you think of competing with the best with these players? In the attack, yes we have Zlatan (injured), Lukaku, Martial and Rashford (I am not convinced on him), Mkhitaryan and Mata. Lukaku has lacked service because of the issues in MF and thus he has struggled. Martial although a better footballer than the other strikers is inconsistent but still makes things happen. Mkhitaryan, I really don’t know what went wrong with him and he wasn’t a Jose signing, he was already through the front doors, Jose just stamped it. So, even with the money spent you need to look at the quality of the players at your disposal before you start to compare yourself with that City squad and their football.
04 Jan 2018 13:52:25
And I’ve now just heard on the radio we are talking to him about an extension. Who’d have thought?
04 Jan 2018 14:22:27
Very good posts redman, I am in agreement with you. Jose is our 4th manager since Fergie has left.
No matter what you think of Jose, there is certain common denominators here for me, it is the board and the players themselves.
The board have obviously made big mistakes in acquisitions and also in how they run certain elements of the club. There are also quite a few players who have been there for years now and who have consistently not produce a level of football that is required for a club like United.
The board need to give Jose what he wants and needs, because his history tells us that he will win a lot of trophies. And the players need to buck up their ideas and work harder because they are responsible for their own poor performances. We can't continuously blame each manager we have for we know whoever comes after Jose, if this doesn't work out, will also be blamed.
By the way, I think Jose's latest press conference was very good.
04 Jan 2018 14:40:17
Another good point. How many of the current squad is actually good enough?
04 Jan 2018 15:13:06
Red man, it all takes time though. Winning UCL titles are a combination of having a great team, timing and luck. If it all comes together then you have a great chance of winning it. First you have to build the team. You can’t go signing 18 players in one summer.
I always thought the mark of a good manager was their ability to get the best out of what they have.
When you’ve gone into those businesses to get them to the top did you sack all the staff overnight? Course not, I suspect you wouldn’t have been allowed. I’m sure you’ll have brought in a few new people, created new role and removed others. But the majority of it will have likely been getting the most out of what you had.
When Sir Alex built his first great team he didn’t just sell the whole team and bought new. He moved some on, he brought a few key players in and he promoted from within. Beyond that he he made sure he got the maximum out of what he had.
Jose is a great manager when it comes to winning things, yet his record with improving players is very patchy. That is one of the reasons he struggles with youngsters, he just isn’t that good at improving players so they stagnate and remain at the same level as when they step up into the first team.
I personally think this team is better than the one Sir Alex won his last title with, Sir Alex just got more out of it.
Real Madrid had a Galactico policy and thought they could buy titles, yet they won very little for it. Barcelona on the other hand focused on doing things their way, they brought young players up from the academy and they ended up with possibly the greatest team of all time. Man for man it might not have been better than Real Madrids, but on the pitch they were miles apart.
12daysofhermida, I doubt it. Mourinho doesn’t tend to think that far ahead. We didn’t make any signings last January when we were in a far worse position than this, unless the chance to sign one of our top targets at a non inflated price presents itself in January then I doubt we will make a signing. Surely Mourinho must be aware of that, he didn’t make these comments last year when our need was greater. So why now?
Mort, we haven’t been buying cheap players under Mourinho. Mkhitaryan is the cheapest at 26m, while he was the Bundesliga player of the year. We only got him for 26m because he was in the final year of his contract otherwise he would likely have cost 30-40m. We aren’t buying cheap players these days.
Shan, all those players are internationals, and all for historically top international teams. Rojo has played in 3 international cup finals, Darmian plays for Italy and Blind for the Netherlands. Shaw was the most expensive teenager for a few years.
I actually don’t think there are that many great defenders anywhere in the world atm. Stones and Otamendi aren’t considered world class players, yet Pep has them playing like they are.
Wes Brown, Phil Neville, David May, John O’Shea. None of these guys were world class, yet Sir Alex got them doing a great job when called upon. Maybe Mourinho just isn’t that good a manager as to be able to lift players and get them playing better?
Hardly surprising Tony, maybe that was his game all along, he just wanted more money. Maybe we should increase the wage of the highest paid manager in the league. That way he might be able to afford to rent an apartment. Lol.
Raghav, I wouldn’t pretend to know who is best. For a start I would want to interview potential candidates as well as research them and their methods. Off the top of my head though I would consider Allegri, Sarri, Pochettino, Schmidt and Marcelino. Some young managers and a couple who aren’t. What is important though is that they understand our club and what is expected of a Manchester United manager.
04 Jan 2018 15:17:24
Mort, was it 7 the other week that started a match that played under Fergie? I think Neville said it. That's 3 quarters of the squad. That's suggest that signings during moyes and LVG weren't good enough and we need more investment.
04 Jan 2018 16:02:21
Shappy, what is cheap in the footballing world when it comes to man United. All relative to what the player can bring commercially. 26 million I would imagine is cheap for United but wouldn't be for say Bournemouth. There are different levels to what we can afford and what players we should be buying. They all come with different price tags when man United are trying to buy them.
04 Jan 2018 16:06:36
Shappy i respect your opinion but being an international doesn't make you a better player. And how long was SAF at the helm of the club when he was developing the players? And yet Jose is being judged in 18 months? And the football has moved on now. Its a results oriented business, not a sport anymore. Pep hasn't developed the defenders you said, its only the fact that the others in front of them are playing so well that it papers over their dodgy defence. The only one that i say is playing better is Sterling. Then we have Lingard who is developing well under Jose. We need a few more windows to get the team sorted. A few have said that only City has spent more than us. Reminder that its only City that are ahead of us in the table.
Also someone said that Manager needs to get the best out of the available players. Does it cross your minds that may be he is doing that. How many of the players have a winning mentality in the current squad. Our squad lacks that final quality to be at the top. May be that's why our manager is calling out the owners to gdt that in.
04 Jan 2018 16:38:47
Shan, this side has won three major trophies in the last 2 years. So I expect several of the players have a winning mentality. Besides isn't it supposed to be part of a managers job to create that mentality within a squad.
04 Jan 2018 17:52:33
But Shan. Jose doesn't develop players 😉.
04 Jan 2018 18:04:33
Shappy darmian plays for the worst italy team seen for 80 years.
Blind plays for the worst Dutch team for 40 years not a great cv booster.
I take your point they are decent players of course they are but they have not excelled at united and they never will so move them on.
04 Jan 2018 20:06:59
Shappy
It does usually take time to win UCL titles, but we have a manager who has done it several times and didn’t take that long to get his team in shape. No one is suggesting 18 players in one summer, but we would be suggesting 3 or 4 of which several must be top level.
You said you thought the mark of a good manager was their ability to get the best out of what they have. The days of Brian Clough have gone, SAF is probably the last great motivator. However both only won 2 UCLs and how many chances did SAF have? Did he really get the best out of what he had, or if he was so good should he have been able to take the next step and dominated Europe?
SAF got more out of his final team for numerous reasons, not least momentum, fear and note City now have a far better team than SAF faced.
I note your comment about Madrid, but how many UCL titles overall and how many in recent years? They are aggressive and aim to dominate in Europe, have a mindset to win, we have just played at it.
What is expected of a Manchester United Manager? Winning, that’s what, nice football if they can but winning is the aim. You name people like Pochettino, who I like, but he hasn’t won anything. Right now the board need to look at Joses plans and decide if they want to support him. If they don’t why should he stay?
04 Jan 2018 21:07:33
Maybe Jose can't get anymore out some of these players. I have been on this site the last few years and have seen smalling slated over and over as not good enough and people expect Jose to get more out of him? I think we are can all agree that there are a few in this squad that aren't good enough and they will be sold once new faces are brought in.
I saw that people were applauding pep for what he did last season, implementing his style and not worrying about results and sorting his squad out. I hate to imagine the reaction if Jose did that, we finished lower than 6th and didn't win the league cup or Europa league. As some have said, it's a results business and Jose gets results.
So Jose has signed 7 players since he came to the club and it has come out that apparently bailly and mhktaryan weren't jose's signings. If that is the case then who is making these decisions? As far as I'm aware, we don't have a director of football which is the only other person I would expect to sign players apart from the manager, I may be wrong though.
On jose's demeanour, he is treated poorly by the press and media, of course he brings a lot of it on himself but I think there is a clear double standard with how he is treated compared to some of the other managers. For example, klopp screams in the linesmans face and instead of getting sent to the stands, is applauded for his passion, if you feel you are getting treated differently to the other managers, you are not going to waltz into your press conference and be happy.
Does anybody know roughly how much of their own money the glazers have put into the club and how much they have taken out as this will show the massive difference in our owners as city's have invested soo much of their own money on over the years already. They also don't mind overpaying on players if that is want pep wants. Apparently Jose really wanted perisic, then go get him, we aren't a selling club so don't worry about their sell on value later on
I saw someone say they want Allegri, he was suppose to be in charge this season from memory but that was obviously screwed up by the supporter base. If Jose is backed properly he will get results, as he has proved during his career.
04 Jan 2018 21:29:53
Darv
Good points
Another question is how much money has been wasted on funding the borrowing and what we could have done with it, such as buying world class players?
{Ed002's Note - You are kidding right?}
04 Jan 2018 22:08:11
Ed002
I am not sure what you mean? There are different estimates as to the cost of the borrowing, but interest, charges and restructuring of the borrowing, the bond issue over many years will come to a very substantial sum.
{Ed002's Note - I guess you don’t understand how the money was used.}
04 Jan 2018 22:23:10
Do you mean the borrowing?
The Glazers used loans to buy the club, the majority were then secured against the club, initially interest payments of £60m a year. They refinanced with a bond issue on which they had to pay interest. I am not aware the borrowing was used for anything other than enabling the leveraged buy out.
{Ed002's Note - you seem to be stuck on half a story.}
05 Jan 2018 08:05:31
Shappy:
Great post, I couldn't agree more with what you wrote.
I think Jose needs to get a little bit more out of the players and make average fringe/ squad players, capable of playing in the starting 11, if the need arises.
I would look at Allegri too, maybe because he stays out of the spotlight and his team does most of the talking and also because he was part of the plan, after LVG (not too sure, but I think he was supposed to come, had LVG stayed for the entire duration) .
With the team, I personally feel that we lack quality wingers. Obviously we need two, Rashford and Martial, even if they are inverted wingers in the current system, do not have the quality or consistency to play that role. Now, whether they can work on it or if it's more of temporary thing, I don't know.
Even if we can't invest in 2, we should definitely try and get 1. Only coz, we might be able to get the best out of Lukaku, for the remainder of the season.
Shan:
You mention that Jose is getting the max out of the players that he has and I think that might be true for certain players, but if that is the case, then isn't it better to ship them out and invest the money into new recruitments?
I firmly believe that Jose asking the board to back him up financially is a fair call. Perisic comes to mind and who knows, there might be a few more who were wanted by Jose and the board didn't sanction the money. Why they didn't sanction is another story altogether.
You're right, Otamendi and Stones aren't world class players, in fact, only Kompany, when fit, can be considered as a good defender in the City squad. The one thing Pep has done, is that he's got them playing the football that he wants to play and they are forced to play that way. I think that is where the fundamental problem is. Jose and United don't have an identity when it comes to the kind of football do they want to play. Do they play short passes, or are the hoofing the ball upfield, nobody knows. From what I see, tactics and game plans are decided on a game to game basis. That's good, teams need to prepare for each opposition, but, the identity shouldn't change.
Red Man:
I may be wrong here, but I think the reason why a lot of us posters talk about Pochettino is because we all admire the way his teams play. The movement, the drive, the continuity, the flow, is all good to watch. Maybe, we want a manager who plays football that is similar to that.
Seeing the Arsenal Vs Chelsea game I was thinking to myself, that if Arsenal can play that way against Chelsea, then why can't we? Arsenal don't have a better squad than us,
but they took the game to the Blues and should have won. Maybe, our team needs the belief, that they can win matches and trust their individual abilities.
Darv:
You're spot on, mate. I genuinely think Mou at times, is treated unfairly by the media and the press. Klopp, Conte, Pep all of them love to be on the sidelines and jump and up down as if the won the world cup everytime their team scores. For them, it might be their way of showing the passion they have, but Mou not jumping doesn't show that he isn't passionate.
Just to end things:
We are playing a mix type of football. We are good on days (Everton, I missed it, but I read we were good that day) and some days we are a pain to watch. Jose needs to give some of the players some creative freedom and should be backed by the club hierarchy, at least for the next couple of windows and then see what can do be done. because our team needs stability and a sense of direction.
05 Jan 2018 06:40:09
Good Morning Ed
Unless all the financial analysts missed where the Glazers used the loans to invest in the business I don’t see how in any way the debt could be good for the club. The costs and interest etc would have been a massive burden over a long period as well. I can only assume you mean the other half of the story is the commercial acumen the owners brought to the club to increase its turnover?
{Ed002's Note - No. The whole matter has been dealt with at very great length before. Why are you bringing this up now?}
05 Jan 2018 09:53:27
Well posted Raghav. I also think on similar lines where the players should be offloaded to fund new ones. But then again the likes of Smalling won't get too much in terms of their price while the players we look for are premium players and there lies the problem. We need funding from the Glazers and Mourinho is right in demanding it.
05 Jan 2018 10:51:26
Agreed, a few of our players won't get too much, but then, over the last few years, haven't we been selling players for cheap anyway?