Manchester United banter 77611


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19 Dec 2017 11:06:24
Beast, you seem to always have a bee in your bonnet over playing style. You say this is because this current United team doesn't live up to your expectations which themselves are based on how you remember us playing years ago.

I have a few questions to ask if you'll indulge me. Firstly how many years ago was this amazing football and for how many years did we play it?

You were as I remember rather against LVG, and before we sacked him even questioned why he was still at the club when a coach such as Jose Mourinho was available. Well you got your wish and we have Jose now. Yet your still unhappy. Who do you want to see manage us now? Pochettino and Klopp have their teams playing some nice football, as does Arsene as always, yet when I check the table they are currently between 7-10 points worse off than we are. Or between 18-22 points worse off than the league leaders.

So here's how I see our club.

Being in my early 30's I don't remember anything pre Sir Alex. But having spoken to many fans and having watched many games throughout our history what I seem to find is no one talks about pre Sir Matt, so it's pretty safe to assume we didn't set the world alight before him. He is considered by many to be the founding father of what the club tries to be today. Many of the famed Manchester United ways started with him, giving youth a chance and playing a swashbuckling style of football. After he left we had a very mixed bag until Sir Alex came to the club. From 1971 until 1986 we had 15 years of very hit and miss football. A good cup team they called us. Sir Alex took 5 years to re-establish the club making it 26 years between titles. The 90's were a golden time to be a United fan. We played great football at times and at others we fought. We didn't always play great football, but when we didn't we battled. We did suffer a 4-5 year blip under Sir Alex in the early 00's, which we recovered from mostly by spending our way out of it. We spent a world record fee for a defender on Rio, we spent big on Veron, van Nistelrooy, Rooney, Berbatov, Nani and Anderson we also spent wisely on Carrick Vidic, Evra and Ronaldo. It got us back ahead of the curve again for a short while, then key players such as Scholes, Neville and Giggs started to slow down and become less effective. We lost key players like RVN and Ronaldo to Real Madrid, some of our big name buys (Veron, Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson) failed to work out as planned and in the final few years Sir Alex did what I consider in hindsight to be his best work, winning titles with a inferior squad to our rivals. Something we didn't have to do too often during his time at the club. But the football couldn't be described as swashbuckling or particularly great to watch, functional and solid at the back.

People forget it took both Sir Alex and Sir Matt 6 years to win a title with us, and both played defensively and functionally when needed, especially in their early and later years at the club.

In nearly 140 years our club is remembered for 15-20 great years under SIr Matt and 15-20 great years under Sir Alex. How was the football for the other 100+ years?

If you had the advantage of living through the whole history of our club then maybe you would have a slightly different outlook to where we find ourselves currently.

You seem to have no patience or appreciation for the fact that Rome wasn't built in a day.
It's easy to look over at City atm and wonder what if, but you need to appreciate it has taken them nearly 10 years to get to where they are now. Why do you think their stadium is never full? Because their fans have had to endure some dyer football over the years, Keegan, Pearce, Hughes, Sven Goran-Eriksson before Mancini won their first title in 44 years. Since then they have won it once more, they will probably win it again this season making it 3 league titles in 49 years.

As much as it pains me to say it, do you not think their fans have earned the right to see a team play good football for a while?

Yes we need to rise to the challenge, but you cannot rise to a challenge until one is presented to you, City were half the team last year compared to what we see today. No one expected City to play in this manner this season. To do so they had to spend nearly 200m on defenders and a goalkeeper in the summer. Others players have progressed too, Sterling and Sane two young players look far more consistent this season, so much so that the 70m player they bought to play on the right in Bernardo Silva has been restricted to a sub role. It would appear not even the City coaching staff expected Sterling and Sane to play this well this season.

Our team does need to up their game, but as City have shown you need to invest heavily to make that jump, something we can't do mid season. So Jose has to make do with what he has. When Pogba is fit we are averaging 3-4 goals a game, hardly boring stuff. Unfortunately he isn't always fit or able to play and we lack the depth to cover him. That is an issue to be addressed in the summer. We are second in the league, have outscored everyone bar the team above us. Have defender better than everyone, we have one of our best point totals by this point of the season in our history, we won two cups last season and are currently well placed in three cup competitions this year.

Yes we all want to see us play football like City, but currently we lack the squad to do so, so until we do what is to be gained from bringing it up every two days?

City are doing extremely well at the moment, why do we need to wallow in it? What is to be gained?

Let's stop comparing ourselves to City this season as until we bring in 100-200m worth of players we won't be able to compete with them on every front.

Let's instead compare ourselves to where we were a couple of seasons ago, let's compare ourselves to where we were last season. There is improvement, and we are getting better.

Agree22 Disagree3

19 Dec 2017 12:05:21
Bang on the money Shaps, anyone who thinks SAF always played excellent football is kidding themself, he only played like that when he his teams were at a peak with some of the best players in the world.

19 Dec 2017 12:27:15
You make some interesting and legitimate points Shappy and whilst I’m not Beast as you’ve posted it on a public forum I’d like to offer my opinion.
I’ve got at least 10 years on you and I do remember the pre Ferguson era and it’s the main reason I became a United supporter because of all the teams that played it seemed to me that United were the ones that kept you on the edge of my seat with great attacking wing play and fast, breakneck speed football. I remember fondly the 10 win streak that should’ve given Atkinson his first title……. and the subsequent collapse. Unfortunately back in those days we could be hit and miss too but it wasn’t for lack of trying. Liverpool were winning title after title back then but I hated watching them because their brand of football bored me to tears. I think they were the sole reason the back pass to the keeper was outlawed. No coincidence that when it was they stopped winning. At least that’s what it seems like to my now fuzzy memory
I’m a dyed in the wool United fan and it all stems from my earliest memories of the team and their swashbuckling, often kamikaze and occasional comical performances. New, young supporters will become the lifeblood of the club and as well as supporting a trophy winning team they need to be entertained………Honestly, the number of Spurs supporters I now see is ridiculous. They must be breeding like rabbits.
Onto United today. There is no doubt that we are a side that is improving and compared to last year we are winning the games that we were drawing last year and that is good. However to use an analogy (something Beast often likes to do), if a leading manufacturer of battery powered vehicles has a car with an average driving range of 150 miles between charges and then a new manufacturer comes out with one that has a range of 300 miles there is no point in the original manufacturer continuing to invest in R&D to make a new car that has a range of 200 miles. Yes it’s an improvement on their old car but the landscape changes overnight. They need to tear up the rule book and start looking at how to come up with a car that has a range of 350+ miles to get ahead of the competition again.
Citeh and Pep are the new manufacture with the range of 300 miles and if he proves that his style of football can win titles in the Premier league (which I think everyone doubted originally) then the reality is that Jose will need to really think about how he goes about winning trophies. Maybe this is the kind of battle that he’ll relish and it will make him an even better manager than he already is.
I’m all in for Jose and I wanted him at the club and I think he’s the right guy so I hope the board continue to back him to the hilt and I hope that he really commits to the club and brings back the style, panache and swagger of the glory days.

19 Dec 2017 12:29:57

There’s 10 days to go mate but I doubt anyone is going to beat that for post of the year, brilliantly put together, well said and I actually agree with every single word. Perhaps it is something to do with us being a similar age but I literally could have written that post (though probably not as eloquently as you did) .

So many things to talk about from it but the point about us improving this year has to be the main thing, any other season we would be Top of the league with the most goals and everybody would be raving about us. Unfortunately dropped points at Chelsea and a silly away result at Huddersfield (which happened many times under Fergie, I remember losing 1-0 at wolves amongst others) have seen us drop a little behind the team with the best record ever after 18 games.

Beast wanted more goals and more excitement, he got that but because we aren’t top of the league it’s still time to moan, for some people they aren’t happy unless they are moaning though we know that from being on here, even if we were in city’s position some would find something to complain about.

Once again, well done Shappy, great post.

19 Dec 2017 12:45:27
On the money pal definitely on the pass back rule . Liverpool killed the game constantly passing it back to the Gk.

Good day for football when the back pass rule come in.

19 Dec 2017 13:41:23
In Andy grays famous words shappy

"Take a bow"

This is the best post all year.

19 Dec 2017 13:55:27
Shappy is only in his 30s!?!

19 Dec 2017 14:00:40
Fabulous post shappy.

19 Dec 2017 14:01:31
Your best essay this year.

19 Dec 2017 14:28:25
Well said shappy! Completely agree with you. People need to stop watching the bit before, in the middle and after the game and form own opinion rather than listening to souness and co.

19 Dec 2017 15:01:45
@ stringer. I KNOW!

19 Dec 2017 15:08:08
Best post of the year Shappy. Voice of reason as always.

19 Dec 2017 15:09:49
Unitedred71, It’s funny what time does to our memories. I was not there during the 70’s and 80’s so I can’t really argue whether they were good years to watch United or not, I’ve watched highlights from those decades, but there weren’t many of them.

Everyone I think feels the same way on their last day of school, excited and happy that it's over. Maybe a little apprehensive about what comes next but still over the moon about not having to go back to school again. Yet within 10-15 years they will say school was the best time of their lives. Now the accepted logic is that you had no idea what being an adult was like, and if you did you would have been happier about being at school during your time at school. However, I think this is being very disingenuous to young people. When our kids, our nieces and nephews say they don’t like school and we pipe in with “its the best time of your life” I don’t think that's fair. How many of us would really want to go back to school?

Currently I am procrastinating as the essay I am supposed to be writing isn’t one to be posted on here. I have gone back into education, and one thing you quickly forget is the hours upon hours of classes, sitting there being spoken to, he homework and the maths classes. Next time you find yourself saying to a child “school is the best time of your life” ask them for their homework and then sit down and have a go and tell me how much fun that is?

The truth is how we feel on our last day of school is a genuine feeling of our time at school, however over the years you forget about the maths lessons, the being talked down to, the homework, the fact that it only rains during lunch time and after 3pm. What we remember is the messing about with our mates, the skiving off, the long holidays and playing pranks on the teachers. In short we remember all the good stuff while conveniently forgetting the bad stuff.

Why am I saying this? Well because I think that is just how our minds work, it's amazing how much better our life was 10-15 years ago. That rosy tint that gets added with nostalgia, that sepia tint that clouds our memories.

That’s why so many of us have forgotten how it really was under Sir Alex, and why we hold current managers not just up to the standard of our greatest ever manager (in terms of winning titles) but an elevated unrealistic version of him which only exists in our memories. For those of us who lived through the Sir Alex years, they will get better with time, but we need to be careful not to add an unrealistic expectation on the current United team and manager based on those memories, we will only end up disappointed every time.

As for your analogy I’m not sure it stacks up. Football teams are not like manufactured products, where once you have created a technology you can continue to build on in it and improve it.

Do you ever believe a human will run the 100m in 1 second? Of course you don’t even though people keep running faster and faster as time goes on. You still accept that there is a limit to what a person can do. Well when you stick 11 football players out on a pitch their ability to do better than before will eventually wane. When players age and their ability to effect the game drops the quality of the team drops. Sure you can buy another player but that player is a totally different human being and may not fit into the team in the same way.

We got thrashed twic by possibly the greatest Barcelona side of all time, yet they are nowhere near that level now. Xavi and Puyol have retired, Iniesta is a shadow of the player he was. They bought arguably better players in Suarez and Neymar than the ones they had before in Pedro and Villa and yet the quality of the team still dipped.

Yes at this moment in time Man City look phenomenal, but will they always play at this level from now on? Of course not, David Silva, Kompany and Fernandinho are getting on, players will get bored, or injured or just want to move on. Pep will want to move on at some point. He will probably burn the players out like he has at every other club he has been at. To get this level of performance out of a team you need to push them so hard that eventually they break down. It's too intense.

Currently they are setting records, maybe one day those records will be broken, maybe not. But they are unlikely to continue to play at this level indefinitely, sure we should be aiming to over take them, and of course I would want that to be by us becoming better than they are currently, but the reality is we will over take them as we improve and they decline.

Oh and thanks guys your all too kind. lol.

19 Dec 2017 15:13:22
Nice words and agree totally.

I like Jose, I like the way we are improving, and like the way jose knows exactly what is needed to improve. All but one of his signings have been a success so far, and a winter and summer window more will see us challenging in the league and champions league.

19 Dec 2017 16:05:55
Jose won't be at United for that long imo probably less than pep at city if he wants to be successful he needs to find a way to beat city and pep.

19 Dec 2017 16:17:27
Peps gone in 18 months. Its no secret. Will Jose be here in that time? Who knows.

19 Dec 2017 16:39:15
Jred, I agree. Jose has never stuck around long at any club, and he isn't giving off the signs that he is about to break the habit of a life time. Pep I think will maybe stay at City a year longer than he has at other clubs. Supposedly City want to extend his contract, I guess Pep will have to show his hand then, I can't see him signing more than a two year deal, but more likely a one year extension.

Pep's teams do tend to start to become a little weary in his third season, the intensity on the training catches up with the players. So I expect City to be not as good next season. I think that looks like our best chance to beat this City side. As long as Jose holds it together for that long, he too has a habit of burning out his players.

19 Dec 2017 16:46:20
To start with Shappy, I disliked school immensely and couldn’t wait to leave and my memory hasn’t changed that at all and I pity anyone who still has to go to school so we start off with a disagreement.
For sure time dulls the memory and often we look back at things through rose tinted spectacles but I also genuinely believe that there are peaks and troughs in whatever you do, whether that is work life, love life, family life or even football. So why can’t I look back at the time under SAF and remember with fondness the style of football we played and remember those peaks as being a prolonged passage of time. Why do you think this is an inaccurate memory, because in my opinion it is not?
For sure there were some years where performance levels dipped but if I look back on his tenure as a whole, for me it was, in the main, bloody fantastic. The only blight on his record is, as you point out, his overall lack of success in the champions league so I think mine is a pretty honest and fair reflection.
Since SAF stepped down we have struggled to get anywhere near that level of consistency or quality of football. Whilst he was manager I never thought we would lose a game even if we were 2-0 down with 5 minutes to play but I never get this feeling anymore and I put it to you that your need to get across your point of view is allowing you to taint the reality of what you are actually seeing and you now prefer to look back through brown tinted spectacles to help support your claims
I’m not quite where Beast is but I think he makes some fair comments and observations. Emotionally I want to disagree with him and sometimes I do but quite often he’s right. Like I said, I’m 100% up for Jose and at times we’ve looked great but let’s not kid ourselves that we are anywhere near the level we should be and the concern I have when I look at the squad is how unbalanced it still looks, how we over rely on one player and how ageing it still looks despite the massive investment. No doubt my expectations are high, maybe a little bit too high but hey if I wanted mediocrity I’d support Arsenal.
Peace and Love to all.

19 Dec 2017 17:05:31
Interesting post Shappy but I totally agree with Unitedred71. We can't say that because we've improved on last year then that's fine. It isn't fine because we're 11 points behind city. We need to up our game and if that means investing in world class players, then we need to do it.
I think mourinho will get it right but the owners need to back him up completely.
No one is interested in coming second. We are a long way short of Real, Barca, Bayern, city and psg.
I also agree that we played good football in the Docherty era which unfortunately didn't last long due to his misdemeanours. We played good football under Atkinson too.
But I agree Rome was not built in a day, but Fergie retired 5 years ago and the Glazers have been here over 12 years, so when are we going to be on par with the top clubs.

19 Dec 2017 19:42:00
Uniderred71, I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. Are you really saying you hand on heart would say the football of 87, 88 and 89 was better than what we are seeing this season? Or the final few seasons under Sir Alex when he couldn't lift the team to the level of Barcelona and the dip we went into after that? Or the football of the Djemba-Djemba years?

Only twice under Sir Alex have we had more points at this stage of the season, only three times in 26 years have we scored more goals by this stage of the season.

I mean sure the football isn't breathtaking but it's a long way from boring.

Attack, all we can do is keep trying to improve. And we are. Is it enough to win the league? Maybe not this year. But I would say in nearly every other year it would probably have been. City are having an exceptional year this season, one that probably won't be repeated for quite awhile. We are likely to have jumped from 6th to 2nd. That's a great improvement.

19 Dec 2017 20:53:22
The 70's and the 80's weren't all that bad, in those days you could have a couple in either The Gorse, The Tollgate or The Dog and Partridge and still pay on the gate at 3.15.

19 Dec 2017 23:54:59
What a post shappy!

As mentioned above - winner for 2017.

Also mentioned above - early 30s? Wow.



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