17 Dec 2017 18:56:26
Interesting point Gary Neville made earlier, was 7 out of the 11 starters today were here when Sir Alex left. 5 at the back, and Rahsford and Lingard were youths.
The point is 660m spent since SAF retired and we still don't have sufficient replacements, signing 8 defenders along the way.
17 Dec 2017 19:45:20
Good point made.
17 Dec 2017 20:05:28
Or maybe DDG, Jones, Smalling, Valencia and Young were better than people gave them credit for? Smalling was good today to be fair to the lad - he often frustrates the hell out of me, but he played well today. Valencia also made a great challenge when it looked easier for two players to score.
17 Dec 2017 20:22:42
I get the point, but I do wonder how accurately that reflects the clubs current state.
To start with Rashford and Lingard being youths during Sir Alex's time and therefore being included I think is just stretching things a little bit. In no other situation would you include youth players who didn't play for the club bar one brief cameo appearance in Sir Alex's final few games as players brought in and honed by Sir Alex. If they made their breakthrough under Sir Alex and played a season or two under him then fair enough. But they were never managed by him.
So it should be 5 of the starting team today have been managed by Sir Alex at the club. However, Sir Alex left 5 years ago. When he left DDG, Smalling and Jones were young players and expected to be a main part of our side for the next 10 years or so. So can it really be that suprising that they are still here 5 years down the line? I don't think so.
So that really leaves Valencia and Young, now Valencia has over the last few years been one of the best full backs in the league. He has rarely let us down, and is still maintaining his input. So why should we have got rid of him? Bar DDG I can't think of a more consistent player at our club over the last 5 years.
Young is the surprise, he wasn't first choice when Sir Alex left and he hasn't really been first choice for any of the managers since, until the start of this season, in which he has been excellent. I think the fact he is able to cover several positions, he doesn't rock the boat about not being first choice and him counting toward the homegrown quota are the main factors behind him still being at the club.
Other than those who started today the only other player in the squad to have played under Sir Alex is Carrick (I know Pogba played for Sir Alex but he hasn't been at the club the whole time since he left) .
Which means barring the youth players, there are only 6 players in the 25 man squad who played under Sir Alex 5 years ago. 19 new players in 5 summer transfer windows and that's not counting the ones who we brought in and sold in that time such as Di Maria, Depay, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger and Falcao.
So I think the club has done plenty on the player front of trying to change things since Sir Alex left, the issue is having had three managers since Sir Alex left has meant we have wasted loads of money on the "wrong" players. Imagine if the money we had spent on Di Maria, Depay and Schneiderlin had been spent on those new full backs and midfield depth everyone keeps going on about.
Rojo, Blind, Mata, Mkhitaryan, Shaw, Herrera and Fellaini are all possibilities to leave by the start of next season. That is £186m worth of players the club has bought since Sir Alex left on top of the £100m worth of players we have already bought and moved on since Sir Alex's departure.
That is the real squad issue since Sir Alex left, nearly £300m worth of talent bought which doesn't fit into the team/ squad in the long term and will likely not be at the club for the stat of the 2018/ 19 season.
17 Dec 2017 20:55:37
Your missing the point Shappy, and he point is they bought more defenders, and the ones with SAF are still playing, not what you are insinuating.
Due to the fact that the managers since SAF retired obviously don't rate them and have bought replacements that haven't been adequate enough.
17 Dec 2017 21:10:48
FZZ, I haven't missed the point at all. Would both Jones and Smalling have been playing today if Bailly was fit? no they wouldn't have been. Lindelof is still settling in, but he was good over the last couple of weeks. Shaw should also be starting.
17 Dec 2017 21:43:15
Bailly has been on the bench a fair few times Shappy.
17 Dec 2017 21:48:39
On the bench was Blind, Rojo, Luke Shaw, Matteo Darmain, lindelof. All fit to play. Yet your picking out Bailly? You clearly missed the point.
17 Dec 2017 23:02:29
I agree with FZZ here shaps. I think you missed the point.
18 Dec 2017 07:20:20
I don’t think the Shapster missed the point. SAF won the League in his last season so clearly there was some talent there. Pogba would have played if fit as would Bailly so whilst Neville had a point I don’t think it was quite as dramatic as he made it out to be. We have bought some very good players and we have also made some terrible buys. Personally I’d be playing Shaw as often as possible as well.
18 Dec 2017 07:52:04
I don't thinks shapps missed any points. Just read his post again.
It's a very generic statement that Neville has made. shappy's point is that we wouldn't be here had we not gone through the two managers right after SAF.
If Neville's point is that we've wasted a tonne of money, then Shappy's helped explain one of the reasons behind the waste (or should I say, two reasons, namely Moyes n lvg) and I am inclined to agree with him especially when names like di Maria, schwine (at least now I don't have to learn to spell his name) depay, Schneiderlin.
18 Dec 2017 09:22:42
Yes we have bought 8 defenders since Sir Alex retired, but how many have left since then?
Well we have Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Evans Fabio, Buttner, Michael Keane, Blackett, Thorpe, Reece James, Wootton, Love and Vermijl.
So we have sold 14 defenders and brought 8. Now several of those players have retired, and many of them are youth players who never quite made it.
Rafael, Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra were the first choice back four in Sir Alex’s final few years, with Evans and Fabio playing vital back-up roles.
Valencia was only covering at right back on occasion, Young was very much considered a winger and not a full back. Jones and Smalling were young lads Sir Alex bought to be the future centre backs for our club, a future that Sir Alex knew would be beyond him.
So we have two players still in the squad from Sir Alex’s time who were considered defenders during Sir Alex’s time.
So considering Vidic Ferdinand and effectively Evra have retired that leaves:
Fabio, Rafael, Evans, Keane, Buttner, Blackett, Thorpe, Wootton, James, Love and Vermijl.
Still playing.
Then we have bought in:
Darmian, Bailly, Lindelof, Shaw, Rojo, Blind, TFM and Varela. Are the only defenders bought since Sir Alex retired.
Are you suggesting that you would rather have the first group of defenders who are still playing and have left the club rather than the second group who we have signed?
Because your original post is to suggest that the club have wasted money on defenders since Sir Alex’s retirement.
That can only be the case if you would prefer to have; Fabio, Rafael, Evans, Keane, Buttner, Blackett, Thorpe, McNair, Wootton, James, Love and Vermijl.
Over; Darmian, Bailly, Lindelof, Shaw, Rojo, Blind, TFM and Varela.
Do you really believe we haven’t improved our defensive ranks?
18 Dec 2017 09:26:32
Beast, Bailly has been on the bench when he hasn't been deemed fit enough to start. He has had several injuries this season. But when fully fit he has started. And I don't think anyone would deny he is our best defender.
18 Dec 2017 13:01:12
I see both sides of this debate players leave or retire and have to be replaced and as a whole the defenders bought look stronger as a squad than the ones who have gone . However if we assume Valencia Bailly Jones and young are at the moment first choice then we have bought 8 defenders for a lot of money and only one is currently first choice . If we bought 8 more in the next five year and only one was first choice it would mean maybe we haven't spent that great . That's as it stands though and who's to say if rojo Shaw or lindlehof aren't first pick in near future then the equation changes.
18 Dec 2017 14:27:54
Slate, that's a fair point. Of the 8 we have signed 2 were youngsters, Varela doesn't look like he'll make it. Whereas TFM has every chance, but is out on loan atm so couldn't feature for us last weekend.
So that leaves 6. Bailly was injured so now we are down to 5. Rojo and Shaw have had disrupted starts to this season with them recovering from injury. In Shaws case this has been and to an extent Blinds, Young has had an opportunity at LB and has taken to it like a duck to water and is probably one of the most "in form" players in our squad. Darmian on the other hand is competing with Valencia at RB. Valencia over the last 5 years has probably only been out performed by DDG. I would also say Valencia has been more consistent than Rafael ever was at RB before him.
I think Darmian was brought in to compete with Valencia and be a great squad option. Which he is doing.
That really only leaves Lindelof who has clearly had a hard time settling. He has only been at the club for a few months, both Evra and Vidic had similar struggles before him. So let's give him a season to bed in.
In a time where a top class player costs you upward of 30m at least I think you need to consider how much we paid for those defenders to see if they have lived up to standard.
Bailly, Shaw and Lindelof are the only ones we have paid a fee we would consider to be for a top class player (30m+) . One is living up to that billing, it is too soon to tell and the other has had terrible injuries. In Shaws last two games he has shown he might still be able to live up to that billing.
The others have been signed for relatively low fees, certianly not fees associated with a top class signing. Blind 14m, Darmian, 13m and Rojo 16m. TFM and Varela were bought for less than 3m combined.
So we signed players for fees we would associate with squad players and guess what they turned out to be squad players. Solid ones at that.
consider that Man City have signed three defenders in the summer for a combined total of 150m there or there abouts, and we have signed 8 defenders over a 5 year period for around 140m. If you want world class players that is the going rate. Maybe if we looked at signing top class players then our defence would look top class.
18 Dec 2017 15:15:20
Fair points shappy the defensive unit has been overhauled some hits some misses and I judged it on one possible defensive line up on another day 3 of 4 could be from the players purchased and our defensive record has been good for a while now . Not to many could have seen young pushing for a world cup place when some of the signings were made to.