12 May 2017 19:56:08
I took a step back after last night to reflect. I want to start with a memory of the night Paul Scholes hit that screamer against Barcelona in a semi final back in 08. We had won the Champions League back in 99 but struggled so many times to get to the final before and after 99. I recall prior to the 08 game, cards were put on the seats that formed the word believe. A message not just for the players but for the fans, believe, we could do it, we knew belief had been lacking before and whether it added that little extra bit or not, we went through. We broke the barrier.
Fast forward to last night and the nerves were on show, the belief has been beaten out of us after the last few years. Where once the team believed they would win, one nil, two nil down, we could turn it around, we would go through especially after 2008, that edge, that belief had gone, destroyed by what has gone on these last 4 years.
I think Jose knew that to get they belief back we had to do what we did in 2008, get over the line, no matter how we did it. I believe that's why we looked nervous, more nervous than in other games. The nerves show in straight forward league games, we lack that belief to get over the line. So what it was Celia Vigo not Barcelona, but in 91 it was Legia Warsaw we scraped by in the semi final not Real Madrid.
I believe the miss at the end by Guidetti, whilst karma for his dive, was vital for the belief in the team. They got over the line, if he had scored it would have kicked all belief from the players, everything Jose is trying to re-build would have taken a huge step back. Well it didn't, we can win close games, close games out, the players can trust each other. Now they need to take the step the 91 boys did, it's a start not the end but it was a step people may have missed.
12 May 2017 20:41:04
Good post but these same players won the FA cup only last year coming back from behind and winning with a goal in the 110 minute, with only 10 men .
and the league cup a couple of month ago with a goal right at the end .
12 May 2017 20:44:38
Very good post Red Man. I think people expect instant turnarounds but belief is very important. I remember watching the Cup Winners Cup Final in 1991, 2-0 up, conceded a goal and people forget Les Sealey's heroics and how we clung on. Yet it launched us onwards and upwards. Belief is powerful, we need to think about that when we look for signings this year, not just good players but players with the right mental attitude who can deal with the expectation and are hungry for success.
I mentioned on another post that there are echoes of the early 90's right now, inconsistent, sometimes very impressive, sometimes frustrating, getting results but not entirely convincing. The next window is critical is securing players who will take us forward, mentally as well as in terms of playing ability.
12 May 2017 20:53:24
*looks for the last post where jred agreed with an OP*
;)
12 May 2017 21:01:44
GDS, you're not ken in disguise are you 😅.
12 May 2017 21:07:21
Great post redman. And I agree with that AJH. The right player mentally is crucial.
12 May 2017 23:08:52
Top post and agrew with it all but you have to remember the players we have at the moment are very young and most of them are nww to the club so it will take time for them to grow into the ethos of United.
13 May 2017 05:58:43
He agrees with beast a lot gds, so you've got that one wrong ;)
13 May 2017 07:43:10
We have just won 2 cups so I don't get the" our belief has been beaten out of us "
We carried on and got a late winner in the league cup, and family cup in injury time with 10 men .
Well written post but come on .
Big game last Thursday, a lot riding on it Jose looked a bit nervous on the touch line but all in all we did what we had to get over the line .
Next Wednesday will be our 3rd cup final in 12 month we won the previous 2.
So I don't agree with the belief has been beating out the squad just the doom and gloomers trying to make out we are a poor team again.
3rd semi final we have won 12 month
Rest of the post like I said was a good post .
13 May 2017 07:44:17
I have to wonder if Red Man is on the José payroll, your ability to make anything positive a miracle achieved by José yet any failing be solely down to the players is quite astonishing.
You informed us that we have been witnessing a José master plan all season and all the failings were down to the players, if only they could score.
Now José has taken a team who don't know how to win, let's forget the FA Cup and League Cup they obviously don't count and suddenly by a miraculous act he has got us into a final. If my memory serves me right I think JRed is correct about the circumstances in which our team won the 2 cups, so compared to Thurs I would say that the way we won the FA Cup was a far better achievement.
My prediction for Stockholm is quite simple, victory and José is a miracle worker, defeat and it's all down to the players.
Just to save you some time, yes I witnessed the transition from Sir Matt which culminated in our relegation.
13 May 2017 08:00:45
We have also been on a huge unbeaten run . We are pretty good at not losing games.
13 May 2017 08:16:48
Chelsea had a one season turnaround, get results and play decent football.
{Ed025's Note - getting rid of their self centred egotistical prick of a manager was the best move they ever made mulamNO..
13 May 2017 08:26:00
Lol I was trying to be polite keenoh has just cut through the BS.
Is that the real R Kean?
13 May 2017 10:43:04
Keanooh/ Jred
I haven't noticed any miracles, however I have seen us struggle to win since SAF retired. Yes we won the FA and League cup beating the mighty Palace and Southampton, neither convincingly, struggling to get over the line. On those, it seems ok on here for some to use those wins to berate managers, it's only the Mickey Mouse cup, only then to point out how big and important they were.
On my original point I haven't seen much belief in any of the four seasons including this one, how many times have we come back from being behind for example? We have lacked real belief since the Everton mentality arrived and the backroom staff who knew what it took to get over the line were dispensed with.
If you were around to see the mess of transition Busby onwards then you would appreciate the mess the club put itself in after SAF. This season has been a bigger challenge than that because of the mess of the transition. Also if you were on here then you would know Jose was not my first choice last summer so I wouldn't get paid much.
I don't see a Jose master plan as you put it, but I do see a manager who I believe knows a mentality change/ improvement is needed and is trying to change it. He himself looked nervous on Thursday because I think he knew how important it was for them to get through. My point was not about some miraculous act as you sarcastically put it, it was about a moment which could have been disastrous if it had gone the other way. If there was a true winning mentality in the club when Jose arrived, a true belief then I believe we would have done better this season. The players have deserved criticism for not putting chances in the net, Jose can't do that for them.
I would also not say Jose is a miracle worker if we win the final, a miracle would be winning the Champions League next season.
13 May 2017 11:14:55
Red man
You talk about beating the mighty palace and Southampton, struggling to get over the line .
But we did, we did win both them cups much in the same way we won against the mighty celta vigo .
You sound much the same as beast when he calls the cups mikey mouse .
Thursday was a big game our whole season rest on it and to be honest a bit of Jose reputation Imo.
But we have lost is it 2 games since November, won 3 semi finals and 2 cups in the last 12 month . Even if they where only against the mighty palace and Southampton (beast would be getting stick for that )
I disagree with your whole " the belief has been beaten out of us "
Not matter what team or tactics Jose puts out the players give 100% until the end we have seen that all season .
Looking at how we have set up against city and how negative at times we have set up in wonder if the belief to go out and win games has been Beaton out of Jose.
I think he looked more nervous than the players and I've seen him look cool as a cucumber in a CL semi .
13 May 2017 11:17:01
Red man
I should add I also think you made some really good points but feel keenoo nailed the message of your post spot on .
Just my opinion on what is a banter site.
13 May 2017 12:07:16
Here, Red Man. Tell us what it was like after Sir Matt left. Was it handled badly, by any chance? I also love hearing about the dire football under Sexton. You never tell that one enough, in my opinion.
'People may have missed it'. Not you, though, eh? Patronising? Moi?
13 May 2017 12:19:46
Jesus redman now you have upset the police🤣🤣🤣.
13 May 2017 12:34:35
Ken
Ha, rattle their cages! Been doing it for years! ;-)
13 May 2017 12:43:50
Should add some have never got over being wrong about Moyes, surely he couldn't have had any negative impact on our belief at all.
13 May 2017 13:28:21
Red Man, you were wrong about LVG, before undergoing your Damascean conversion one day, late in his second season. And then setting yourself up as some sort of anti-LVG focal point. Nice rewriting job, there.
I just think it's funny how your weekly sermons always patronize, and by implication insult, your fellow posters, yet they appear not to notice. Nearly every post has a, 'People may have missed it' line. Not you obviously.
And you really are the one obsessed about Moyes. How in God's name has he been brought into this?
13 May 2017 13:31:10
I'm sorry but blaming any of this on Moyes is ridiculous if you are trying to say Jose is correcting it. How many of our current starters even played much under Moyes?
DDG - been great
Valencia - been great
Fellaini - one of the better ones
Maybe Carrick and Mata, although nominal impact and Mata was last ditch panic buy when the writing was on the wall for him. The Moyes players are the ones that look good and he wanted Herrera badly as well, who has been another of our stand out performers.
Blind, Bailly, Darmian, Pogba, Herrera, Rash, Lingard, Martial, Ibra, Miki - all came on the scene after Moyes left.
Moyes, LVG and Jose all play in similar ways. Believe what you want, but to say Moyes impacted our belief when the players who played under him are mostly our best performers is a joke.
13 May 2017 13:32:42
Keanooh, love it, mate. Nice to see someone else on here who can see through the guff.
13 May 2017 13:43:10
No one is getting upset, it's a banter site .
Keeno hit the nail on the head Imo, it's just another Jose can do no wrong nothing his fault post.
Another silly argument (and there has been a few of late ) as to why Jose is doing an amazing job with the limited team he has and how it's everyone's fault but Jose.
Win and lose as a team it's Manchester United not Jose united .
A few if not most see through it now, it's getting funny 😂.
13 May 2017 15:47:11
Jred
1) If you are going to try and make a point at least get your facts right. How was I wrong about LVG? I didn't want him and have said on here many times I wanted Klopp when Moyes left. I didn't see the reason for lvg unless we had decided to implement a set playing style. Nevertheless, his CV was somewhat better than the previous incumbent so felt he deserved time until it became obvious it wasn't going to work.
2) Moyes changed all the back room staff which changed the ethos, the belief and the winning mentality bringing with him his Everton "want to aspire to be City" defend like Jagielka, mentality. A club isn't just about the players but so much more. Thanks to Moyes other teams stopped being afraid of coming to OT. Moyes started the rot.
3) I never said Jose is doing an "amazing" job but what he is doing deserves better than some of the back stabbing stuff on here. He deserves more time and hopefully the club isn't as impatient as some of its faceless online supporters.
13 May 2017 16:13:32
Like those impatient, faceless online 'supporters' who refused to go to watch the team, while a certain manager was in charge?
13 May 2017 16:41:41
Stevie, at least I had been paying and going to OT for decades so earned a right for my protest by not going when they appointed he who should not be named. Many went to FC United when the Glazers arrived.
13 May 2017 10:23:22
Ed025 you really don't like Mourinho do you. I think most successful people are very self centric egotistical type of guys.
{Ed025's Note - i really dont you know singh, when he first came to the prem he was a breath of fresh air, witty, still big headed but it was endearing and i thought he was great and his team was playing entertaining football, then a few years ago everything changed and dr jekyll turned into mr hyde, gone was the cheeky chappie with the witty remarks and smiling face only to be replaced by this scowling nasty piece of work who,s teams ground out results but lacked flair, last season chelsea realized this and showed him the door only for a desperate united to rekindle his self obsessed power trip and now they are paying the price...just my view of course mate
13 May 2017 18:24:41
Red Man, you do know you're not the only one on here who's been to OT regularly over the years? And it was a lot harder for some more than others to get over fairly regularly. Not once, no matter who was in charge, would I ever have thought of not coming over to watch the team. But, each to their own.
I know you think you're the only supporter on here that was around before Fergie, and that this gives your pronouncements more gravitas, but save the sermons on loyalty, for those who are young and gullible enough not to see through the patronising hypocrisy.
And for the last time, just a wee tip for any future lectures - criticising certain Jose decisions, does not make anyone anti-Jose, or mean they want rid of him. It's a lazy argument to try and paint the views of anybody with a different viewpoint to yours, as more extreme than it actually is. It also helps cultivate a them and us mentality on here, which just causes silly spats. Like this one.
13 May 2017 18:38:42
Sorry. But I've lost the plot of this thread.
Moyes and lvg have come and gone and in truth should never have been at United. Mourinho is here now and his record is one of the best, so we've got to give him a chance.
I'm in agreement that the style of play has been too negative in parts but we've improved the style this year. We've had a lot of injuries and that's not helped. The team looks a bit jaded and are lacking the composure that comes with continuity. So if we win the Europa cup, we will have to consider this a good season.
13 May 2017 18:27:03
Steady on there, Ed025. You'll fall foul of the new world order on here, with views like that, mate.
{Ed025's Note - i cant help how i feel noucamp, if someone asks my views on a topic then i will give it them from the hip mate, of course i dont expect everyone to agree especially on these pages..
13 May 2017 19:17:07
Good post Schmid.
I've not seen many calling Jose out
Sure there are plenty of negatives this season
Sure things can improve
But let's out some context into it for some of our most recent very poor games.
We have a converted winger at rb
A rb playing lb
A midfielder playing cb
Our midfield has been ok but is lacking runners ahead of them. We are lacking an aggressive technically strong holding player.
In attack we have finished the season with rash and martial sharing the striking roll and they only have 9 league goals between them and are very young and raw. Not withstanding their potential. Our wide players miki Jessie and at times martial and rash have not been consistently among the goals. It's no mystery we are not dining at the top table at the moment but if we do win the Europa it will have been a good season and it will help get the 5 or 6 players required to elevate us to the top table again.
14 May 2017 08:00:27
Nou
Final post on this, but your "Not once, no matter who was in charge, would I ever have thought of not coming over to watch the team" amused me. Was it not you who posted that you couldn't be bothered going inside to watch the game from your barbecue a week or two ago?
14 May 2017 12:14:57
I was being flippant, Red Man. If you couldn't tell that, from my sunbathing comments, I despair. Though I wouldn't have blamed anyone for not making the effort, seeing as our manager clearly didn't.