18 Mar 2017 09:15:58
I watched us against Rostov the other night and many were not happy about how average we looked including myself.
Unlike some i have no issues with the manager or tactics but the reality is we are not as good as we think we are and probably 5 or 6 players away from being a great team.
This is quite evident when you consider how poor the PL league has been in Europe and we are 6th in this league.
18 Mar 2017 10:04:55
X - For me it is all about the tactics. We have a lot of very good players that are for the most part playing under their level of capability consistently. The manager and the tactics he chooses to adopt are the reason for this.
I can count on one hand how many times we have looked better than average this season, yet clubs with far inferior players look much better to watch. I desperately want to see progress in our play but I don't see it still. Even if we are improving our rivals are for the most part improving quicker than we are.
18 Mar 2017 10:09:55
X files
I agree, I think 3 to 4 players though. I know I am repeating myself but we are where we are now due to years of mistakes. SAF later years saw poor transfer deals, the transition was badly handled, what business allows its two most important key people leave at once? Then we appointed patently and obvious at the time, the wrong manager, got rid of key backroom staff, then got it wrong a second time, all the while nearly all the transfer deals were questionable. We have almost seem rudderless as a club so we need to accept this is where we are now and all the quick fixes won't work.
I saw on live chat calls from the usual suspect for the Monaco manager or I think Dortmund, basically anyone who could entertain, to be appointed. They just do not understand the fall we have experienced, probably from about 2009 when Ronaldo left and SAF didn't find "value". We declined as a team and as a club, this needs to be recognised.
We are building from the bottom again, Jose knows what great looks like and it will take time. I am happy with what he is doing, we are pretty solid and solid is where you build from. I suspect recruitment this summer will define our situation better and expect a league challenge after that. Rome, as they say, was not built in a day.
18 Mar 2017 11:11:56
Red man, I agree, there is a lack of appreciation as to the size of the job following SAF's departure. Years of poor investment in key areas, a failure to replace our ageing stars and all of the work needed behind the scenes to modernise aspects of the club that had been under the control of one person for over a quarter of a century. It was a unique situation and one that Arsenal fans may appreciate when Wenger leaves. Our transition was set back further by some poor recruitment which has resulted in a constant change of personnel and ideas, leading to where we are today.
Some fans would be happy to see another change and to start over yet again, which is crazy in my mind. How long would the new guy get before these same people turn on him?
Personally I would call for patience and look to find some consistency by allowing Jose to keep building on what he's got. I'm not happy with the league position yet we are only a few points away from a position I would be satisfied with (say top 3). I'm happy that we look capable of winning silverware, that we are harder to beat than we have been for years, that we are playing far better football than under LVG (despite what some will say) and I'm generally happy with our transfers last summer Bailly, mickey, Pogba and Ibra.
I'm eager to see what Jose can achieve this summer and next season. He will have had his bedding in period and chance to imprint his ideas on the squad. Next year we need to be competing for top honours and I think he will be judged on his ability to achieve that (as he has done previously in second seasons at a club) .
I do appreciate that some don't like his style of play or mannerisms off the pitch and to be fair that's not going to change, as its Jose. I can't say these are things that bother me too much. For starters our football has been getting better and I have no issue with pragmatic tactics in some games. Remember SAF learning how to be more pragmatic away in Europe, for instance? Secondly, SAF could be the most miserable, biased, grumpy person when things didn't go his way and he never hid from controversy. Did it bother me? Not one bit because of what he achieved. If Jose wins us the league next season I don't think I'll care if he's a bit grumpy along the way!
18 Mar 2017 12:16:25
I agree with Gav and redman. I do still think we need more than 3. I think the fullback positions on both sides needs a solution and its a continuous experiment at the moment with no real solutions. Whilst Valencia has been great from a work rate perspective his final product is never going to scare anyone and the left side is a mess with no apparent solution and not sure what has happened to shaw that he is unable to even get on the bench.
We also need a right sided winger and need to replace rooney with another striker. I am not even going to talk about CB's because that is a very debatable subject. If you like defenders who are good with the ball then i am afraid jones or smalling neither make the cut and Rojo is too inconsistent with his passing.
All in all we can all blame the manager or tactics but really believe it is a rebuilding job that needs players and we are not that good, 6th in an average league including all the teams above us by their poor and in some cases embarrassing performances in Europe.
18 Mar 2017 12:04:37
I get where you guys are coming from, continually changing things is a bad idea if there are solid signs of progress, but if something isn't working then why not? We all know Jose will not change (like LVG would never change), I'm not too sure where all this faith comes from. Especially after the Chelsea debacle with Jose, maybe he is simply past his best now and there won't be a dead cat bounce from Jose.
We seem to be pragmatic against every team we play. Blackburn, Rostov, Bournemouth, Southampton and Chelsea have been the last few games. Was there any difference in the way we played against that vast range in different teams and competitions and standards?
We played in the same lethargic way, either just winning, losing or simply getting a draw - almost identical performances. I'd love to know where all these good performances are, and all this improvement is that people pull out of the 'wishful thinking' locker?!
18 Mar 2017 12:56:16
I think we need around 4 new players. A CB, at least one full back, a different option in CM to compliment Pogba/ Herrera and a right sided attacker. Jose operates a lot on trust so I would hope that once he has the players he trusts in most positions we will see further improvement and a little more rotation to maintain peak fitness levels.
I understand your worries Beast as to some degree it is wishful thinking - nobody knows what the future holds. But Jose has earned a certain amount of faith by winning major trophies across Europe. In terms of signs of improvement the two main things for me are how difficult we have become to beat but also the number of chances we have created compared with the LvG tenure. Some poor finishing has unfortunately taken the edge off that but those two factors, as well as the early cup success, are a good base to build from Imo.
I'd rather see how Jose can build on that base than try a new option to start again, at the risk of fans getting on the new guy's back after 6 months unless we are playing brilliant football and sitting top of the league. There are no guarantees in football but unless you give a manager the full opportunity to succeed then we will never find out what might have been. I don't see anywhere near enough reason to cut Jose's tenure short at this time, bearing all this in mind.
18 Mar 2017 13:24:36
Give it a rest please Beast, we have won the League Cup, in 1/ 4 final of Europa and 2 games behind top 4.
You act like we are trying to avoid relegation. Just let the man do his job!
People like you are the reason football has gone silly expecting instant success, wanting managers fired because they don't play to how you want them to. Let Jose build his side and have at least 2 years to do it, if you can't manage to let him do that then don't watch.
18 Mar 2017 14:39:07
Unbeaten in 23 home games and a very good away record, get him out, he's clueless.
18 Mar 2017 15:23:50
Delude yourselves if you want. This isn't anything like the Man Utd I fell in love with and by the looks of things (and everyone's expectations including the mid-life crisis managers) it never will be again. I don't want to give up that easily and think we need to lift our expectations, sheep mentality buying into the BS we are being fed.
Top 4, EFL cup, Europa League - I've had a few drinks this afternoon, but those of you using these to back the argument are confusing me. Are we talking about the same team, those "targets" are simply not the targets of a club with our resources/ position in the world, it's laughable - they are the targets of losers happy to accept the dross we are served up week in week out?
We were lucky to win the Disney Cup, what the hell is the Europa League? Anderlecht in a Qtr Final, give me a break! Top 4 is almost possible WTF?!
My advice is to stop listening to the lame excuses and look at the rubbish being produced then make an informed conclusion. It's not good enough, if we get beat tomorrow some of you will be saying it was to be expected because Boro are fighting for their lives and have a new manager to impress. What a Joke.
18 Mar 2017 15:51:11
So is it José's fault that we are playing in the Europa league Beast? Next year we will make champions league what you going to moan about then.
18 Mar 2017 15:58:44
I hate to break it to ya Beast, but we finished 5th last year. We don't have a divine right to win or even challenge for the title because we've been poor for a few years now. The short termism in football is disgusting. If a manager like Jose can't be given at least 3 years in charge to mould a team then what's the point? He's only in charge 8 months!
As a United fan of nearly 30 years, I do love the attacking swagger, flying wingers, the ruthlessness we used to play with but that's gone for now. You can't have your cake and eat it mate. And you can't play that type of football without a solid back 5 or we'd just end up like arsenal.
Jose is building something. If you can't see the areas we are improving in then you need to look closer. Who cares what he says in his press conferences. Who cares what he says in interviews. That's all nonsense anyways.
I'll echo RedMan and Honeybadger's points. This is a huge rebuilding job. Jose is laying the foundations that have been grossly neglected over the last 7 or 8 years. The football world is dramatically shifting and we're not the only beast at the watering hole anymore. We can't afford another new manager and that pesky phrase "transition" because the football world will move on. There's no better manager in world football that has the ability to get us back to the top in a short space of time than Jose.
18 Mar 2017 16:11:24
What if we don't Simon? What if we do and come 3rd in the group again?
LVG was building something, so was Moyes. But everyone was quick to jump on the "out" bandwagon was soon as it became too much for even the firmest believers in backing the manager at the expense of our short and long term success.
What Jose is aiming for I don't want to see, the horrible process of trying to get there is not worth more of the same with a slightly tighter defence and slightly more ruthless attack. Our rivals are aiming for more than that and we won't catch them unless Jose changes his mindset to the clubs traditions, but I now realise he won't. Just like with LVG in 12 months time you will all be advocating his dismissal and ignoring my foresignt!
18 Mar 2017 16:21:18
Beast what do you do, if your wife you married put on a bit of weight and looked a bit different to the person you fell in love with?
Would you support her through it and help her get back to where she was or would you sack her off and get a new wife?
18 Mar 2017 16:29:17
Sorry Beast i was with you on LVG, but after 8 Months your talking about Jose not being the right man? I'm not saying he's the be all and end all, he will make mistakes the team will let him down but at the end of the season I expect us to finish top four win the league cup and the Europa. I'm my opinion he has met the objectives of getting us stable and in a position to challenge. We need to make our success sustainable I would rather get it right then get back to the top of the perch.
18 Mar 2017 17:07:59
FZZ - I'd ask her to live up to the standards we agreed upon when we made our vows. I'd give her all the support I possibly could, ask myself serious questions and fight for us to get back to happyness and her to a point where she felt good. I'm not too sure if I would have married Jose, because if his "vows" were to deliver rubbish football and some second rate trophies then I'd have said no. He would have assured good football and big trophies otherwise he wouldn't get the job, but I'd think he might be on the rebound after the Chelsea debacle and would have maybe taken a watching brief (depends what he was like in the interviews and we aren't privy to that) . I just don't think he is capable of making the changes necessary. I chose my wife, I didn't choose Jose. I did choose Man Utd and that is not the same thing as Jose!
Simon - 8 months is long enough for me to make my mind up mate, I'd be happy to be proven wrong of course. But the target being achieved is just as important as the way it is achieved for me, he is going to grind us back (if he can), I don't think that is necessary given our resources, we should do it with style and substance. He is not the same man he was 10 years ago, his passion has depleted, we need a risk taker a manager that thinks we will score more than anybody, not we will concede less than anybody!
18 Mar 2017 17:29:57
I agree with some of your points Beast i just think we need to be patient and evaluate at the end of the season, I would also like to see the standard of football we have enjoyed in previous seasons, but only when we are a solid top four team with some trophies and confidence surging through the team then next year look at really going for it with a good run in Europe and pushing for the league.
I can see your frustration and point of view, let's see where we are at when the season ends.
18 Mar 2017 17:34:17
So beast mate, who would you put in charge if you had the choice?
18 Mar 2017 17:40:52
It will be a manager that is in charge and has a contract at another club no doubt mumbles.
18 Mar 2017 17:53:47
I like how Monaco and Spurs play. Especially Monaco. Without interviewing the manager it is just guess work, but certainly somebody who would make the most of the riches available. Jose could get Stoke to where we are in the league, that is the problem, we play like we are Stoke or how Stoke used to play at least, we are more boring than even them now imo.
Just somebody who wants to score as many as possible, our past 3 managers all focus on keeping teams out, we need a manager that's main priority is having the opposition worry about keeping us out!
18 Mar 2017 19:38:34
That's what every football fan wants to see Beast but it's not a practical way to win things, especially in such a competitive league. Keegans Newcastle were hugely entertaining but that's all they're remembered for. They couldn't get over the line. Rodgers Liverpool were explosive going forward but we're pony at the back and couldn't get over the line. Poch's Spurs last year played some fantastic stuff and we're beaten to the league by Leicester.
All our League campaigns were built on a solid defence and without a solid defence, you can't win a league. Maybe Jose isn't the man to get us back to playing free flowing attacking football but he will assemble a first team that will be up there with the best if he's given time.
18 Mar 2017 20:20:22
Beast I love you! You are very funny and highly entertaining.
18 Mar 2017 21:10:42
It's a joke this is for God's sake.
18 Mar 2017 22:46:24
Beast r u just saying these things to get a reaction?
19 Mar 2017 09:03:43
BEAST if u have made your mind up on Jose then maybe not watching UTD until he moves on is best for u.
Keep checking on here over the next couple of years and we will keep u posted on who is our Manager.
U say some of us are biased to UTD, rose tinted glasses but its u who is biased to your own opinions. Great that you have them but its the same every day from u (and a few others) and none of u will ever consider any differing opinion. IMO of course.
19 Mar 2017 10:03:13
I'm sure Beast would give the Spurs or Monaco manager a. full chance if they arrived and wouldn't be calling for the sack after a few months 😲 its getting a bit boring now.