03 Feb 2017 06:16:38
As usual Betty has hit the nail on the head. However I want to talk about the 2 superstars.
Ibra has scored goals but his form ha so been patchy. Lately he looks ponderous and tired. I have no problem with that but when he seems undroppable (unrestable) then we have a problem. Here's a question, given how many chances we have created this year, how many goals do you think Costa, Aguero, Kane would have scored? Ibra has had some great patches and score, some important goals but he seems untouchable and that bothers me. Look at City's front line the other night, we could do something similar with a Martial, Rashford, and Miki but it seems ibra has to play.
As for Pogba, after a beginning he started to look the part but again he seems to be flat right now. For £90M he should be taking games by the scruff of the neck and dominating them, not sure I've seen him do that and right now, if he was any other player a I think he would have been dropped. I'm glad he's here and I think he has huge potential but he needs a serious talking to.
I still think we have a very strong squad and I've enjoyed our games this year, even the draws. Hull was pretty dire but the games against Stoke and Burnley were tremendous even though we didn't win. I just worry Jose has 2 players he will never drop
03 Feb 2017 07:23:25
Morning AJH - I think once again confidence, or lack of it, is a major issue for us. When confidence is high, we look energetic and play with more speed and energy. When results aren't going our way, we look slow, lack tempo and look more 'calculating' in our play. We saw the same under LvG.
Now I'm not trying to absolve Jose or LvG of any blame, but I am sure neither of them would have told the players to slow down, play deeper and try to score less goals!
It just seems to be a natural reaction to footballers these days. Too many seem to lack the 'courage' that SAF used to talk about so often. We still lack a real leader, a motivator, on the pitch.
As for the two 'superstar' signings, they do seem undroppable at the moment. But like I said on the other page, who else has really staked a claim? I don't really like the "I told you so", or "I said ages ago" posts, but I did suggest (lol) back in the summer that Zlatan was not the answer. Yes, he has scored goals, but his team's desperately lacks pace. We need a quick, mobile CF who can play up there on his own, or perhaps a change in formation and a poacher to play up room with Zlatan.
As for Pogba, he was never going to justify the price tag. He will be fine and do OK for us, but he will never like up to the price-fixing which is not necessarily his fault!
They all need a kick up the arse. Season after season, their heads drop after a couple of indifferent results and we start to look slow and lethargic in our play.
If we start putting those chances away - yes we could be creating more, but we are creating enough to win games - then draws turn to wins. Confidence returns and tempo returns.
All so simple isn't it. No, really, it is :)
03 Feb 2017 07:33:38
How many strikers have we seen over the years, including at our club, who do nothing for 89 minutes but grab an important goal. Ibra is in his twilight years, can't keep up twith the pace of the premiership but you know if the ball drops to him there's a very good chance he scores. Yes we are wasteful but it's not all down to Ibra. We rely on him too much and we need goals from elsewhere.
Agree about Pogba. On current form he should be nowhere near the first team. He looks like he's also off the pace but he's 23 so has no excuse. He's not looking like a 'future best CM in the world'. I look at our competitors and I see Dembele, Kante, Alli, Ramsey, Lallana all so far ahead of him.
03 Feb 2017 08:23:42
Ramsey? He's been invited for 2 years and certainly hasn't kicked on after one good season.
People need to get off Pogba's back. One it's not our money so his price tag is irrelevant, and two he didn't set the price. He'll come good, and very good at that. He's a class act. Amazing Miki gets all the slack though. A cheaper "talisman" who hasn't done a lot since he arrived. He could t even get a game until December!
I do agree we need a new Carrick though, and rotate Zlatan or buy a finisher in summer. Oh a left back if Dhae is finished and a. We centre half too please. That's not too much to ask for is it?
03 Feb 2017 08:33:34
Christ on a bike! Is my typing really that bad or can I blame auto correct?
"but his team's desperately lacks pace" - should be "this team"
"poacher to play up room with Zlatan" - should be "to play up front with Zlatan"
"never like up to the price-fixing" - should be "never live up to the price tag".
Will try harder next time peeps :)
03 Feb 2017 09:15:41
AJH, I'll pose you another question.
Why do you expect more from Pogba and Ibra than you do the rest of the squad?
Its a team game after all, all for one and one for all and all that.
Pogba was never going to live up to his price tag, certainly not within 6 months. He isn't yet the kind of midfielder to dominate teams on his own. He might well go on to be that kind of player, but it takes time. Other than Herrera I don't think we have a midfielder in better form than Pogba. And remember its taken Herrera over two seasons to hit this kind of form and he is four years older than Pogba.
As for Ibra it was well known he was 35 when he joined the club. He has also never been a "busy" forward. He has used his strength positioning and technique to carve out openings for himself and his team mates. Personally I don't think we have enough pace close to him within the team to make the most of his talents. I also feel our midfield tends to sit too deep, and our wide players stay too wide. So a system with no No.10 a midfield that sits 10 yards too deep and wide players being asked to stay wide Ibra is left isolated and with probably too much to do.
The solution is two fold, we need full backs who can push forward consitently to provide width which allows our wide forwards more freedom to come in field and bridge that gap between them and the central striker. We also need a quicker and more defensively dominating holding midfielder who will give players like Pogba more freedom to push forward.
03 Feb 2017 10:01:18
Double standards Shappy, other players are dropped for playing like they do, they are not dropped.
03 Feb 2017 10:06:46
Ramsey and lallana lol 😂
03 Feb 2017 10:38:47
oh for the days when we had giggs/ ronaldo/ rooney down the left and Evra bombing past them and Beckham/ Ronaldo down the right with red nev boming past. simple but effective
03 Feb 2017 11:32:38
Beast, So you would rather have Fellaini in midfield and Rooney up front.
Mourinho has dropped players for poor performances but you need to have a player who can do a better job in their place.
We have Mkhitaryan, Mata, Rashford, Lingard and Martial all fighting out for two positions so three will always miss out. We have quality in depth in those positions.
We have had several injuries in the full back positions so we have had to chop amd change a lot.
Beyond our midfield three of Carrick, Herrera and Pogba we only really have Fellaini and Schweinsteiger as alternative options. Possibly TFM.
We haven't got the strength in depth, none of the options on the bench can really be said to be as good as the players on the pitch.
Besides for the most part Pogba hasn't played badly, he has been one of our top 5 performers over the course of the season with only Valencia and Herrera possibly ahead of him.
I think the real issue is people can't get past the fee we paid for him and judge him compared to that than what the other players are doing. If we paid 20m for Pogba last summer and he played exactly how he has so far everyone would be saying we got the bargin of the summer.
As for Ibrahimovic, Mourinho likes his forwards to act as a target man and to bring other players into the game with good hold up play. Everyone bar maybe Jred on here has been crying out for Rooney to be dropped. So I'm guessing you don't feel Rooney should play ahead of Ibra?
Martial was given a chance to stake a claim on the strikers position in the first half against Wigan, a championship team. And he really didn't do anything to suggest he is ready and capable to lead the line for us yet. Which just leaves Rashford as an option, now I know he has played most of his football out wide this season but he has been given chances up front, and again he hasn't out performed Ibra in that role when he has been given that chance.
I think people are only picking on Pogba and Ibra as "undropable" as they are Mourinho signings. What about when DDG has had the occasional poorer game this season, or the games where Herrera or Valencia have had an off day. He hasn't dropped them.
People also conviently forget that both Bailly and Mkhitaryan have been dropped by Mourinho for poor performances regardless of them being "his" signings. In fact Mkhitaryan was hardly given a game for three months.
Who's are top scorer this season?
And who has laid on the most key passes?
The reason some people feel that Pogba and Ibrahimovic have underachieved this season is because they expect too much from them, or at least far more from them than they expect from any other player.
03 Feb 2017 11:34:10
Shaps, I don't expect more, I just expect to earn their place and right now I'm not sure they are
03 Feb 2017 11:58:24
Hi Shaps - well yes mate if on form, the whole concept should be if you are playing well you keep your place, if not then another member of the squad get's their chance. Personally I'd rather change to a fixed 4-4-2, but I would rather players play that are in form or who have something to prove, than somebody who seems to be taking their place for granted with the way they are performing.
Undoubtedly Pogba and Ibra are extremely talented and on form would be first names on the team sheet, but playing irrespective of form is not on in my book. I think Jose is afraid to drop them and that concerns me just as much as his pathetic antics when addressing supporters of the club via the media. All of them are acting far too big for their boots at the minute!
03 Feb 2017 13:02:44
Spot on Beast.
03 Feb 2017 13:31:00
I think the key point is that we need our big players to step up and right now they are not doing.
03 Feb 2017 13:37:46
Snappy
At least beast is consistent, many wanted Rooney dropped last season to be honest I don't think we had a better option so he wasn't .
This season we have added pogba miki ibra and Herrera has found form.
But the argument was always, if your not playing well you should be dropped, other players should be given a chance, the team could set up in a different formation etc etc.
Beast has stuck to his guns others have made a u turn
03 Feb 2017 14:45:48
He has been consistent that players like Fellaini, Schweinsteiger and Rooney aren't good enough for the club so I would be interested to know who he would want to play in place of Pogba and Ibrahimovic?
03 Feb 2017 16:04:46
Thats also true.
03 Feb 2017 16:05:06
Thanks Jred
Drop Pogba and go 4-4-2 Shappy, why do we need to stick to this boring 4-5-1? I know Jose won't do that, but I would like to think a first class manager has more strings to his bow than just sticking with the same thing week in week out. A bit of time preparing us 4-4-2 and we would be good again, also allows us to drop the undroppable if he carries on being poor.
I'd also suggest giving TFM a chance rather than just sticking with players because of their brand.
I've been consistent about going 4-4-2 as well, couple of games getting used to it and we would be much better imo.
03 Feb 2017 16:31:05
Beast, so you want 442?
So who would be in your team? You want Pogba and Ibrahimovic dropped.
Also 442 requires at least one speciallist winger or you stuggle for width, other than Valencia and Young I don't see any others.
I'm assuming if your not a fan of Fellaini or Schweinsteiger and you want Pogba dropped then you'd go for a midfield of Carrick and Herrera?
Don't you think they would be exposed?
Also do you think it would be fair to chuck a relitively untested youngster in to a midfield two potentially with a 35yo alongside him? That might be asking a bit too much.
442 still doesn't solve the fact we lack quality in defence? Our full backs are either good defensively or good going forward but not both, and none of them are great at either.
So you want two up front, but which two? Rooney and Ibrahimovic have shown they can't really work well together. Add to that you want to drop Ibrahimovic, and you wanted Rooney dropped last year.
Which top team in world football regularly dominates their league and always challenges for the UCL plays with two strikers?
None of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich or even PSG play with two strikers and they play in far less competitive leagues than we do. Why do you think that is?
The only team I know who regulary plays with two up top and challenges for titles are Atletico Madrid, but they don't play the pretty attactive football you keep claiming you want to see. Leicester played 442 last season, and it was effective for a while, but it certainly wasn't pretty or entertaining, pretty much everyone fight for your life and defend and play route one football quickly to start a counter and hope that by having two players up front they can create enough space for themselves to score a goal.
So who would you want to see in your line up and how do you propose to circomnavigate the issues I have raised with your 442 plan?
03 Feb 2017 18:02:16
Give me a transfer window and the summer to prepare and I would have us playing 4-4-2 like the good old days mate. I'd have a proper full back overlapping a proper winger on each side.
I'd have a midfield playmaker like Herrera with a Vidal type player bombing about, making things happen. I'd have a young striker playing as an outlet with a roaming striker linking with the midfield and the wide men.
First and foremost the mindset will be "go and fill your boots lads, get goals, express yourselves, try things, entertain us because the past 5 years have been a disgrace to the name Man Utd - show the fans why you cost us so much and are paid so much".
Trouble is, every year we spend a fortune and a couple of years later we get rid of the same players. We play youngsters in different positions than what they have grown up playing, with different players every week so there is no rhythm to our play.
Yes we would be exposed at times, but that would mean opponents would need to commit men forward, I'd wager we become more dangerous than they are. At the minute it's too easy to set-up against us and we don't look a team, trusting one another.
I know people hate it when I say its bad, but frankly it's still bad! 3 defensive minded managers hired and low and behold we have trouble scoring and breaking teams down.
We need an attacking minded manager long term, but short term Jose needs to earn his crust and stop doing what LVG did and playing the same way irrespective of who we play, but constantly changing the personnel that aren't going to mouth off or asking them to do things they aren't good at.
Ranieri showed what 4-4-2 can do with average players and one superstar. Just imagine what we could do!
03 Feb 2017 21:21:08
I'm trying to get my head around what your saying Beast.
On one hand you say Jose isn't flexible enough and sticks to much to one formation/ tactic.
Then in the next breath you say you would do exactly the same just with 442 rather than 433.
You also say Jose doesn't rotate/ drop players but then controdict that by saying he is playing too many players in differnt positions and they can't get any chemisty going.
I think tactically you maybe showing why your not an EPL manager.
You want to go 442 chuck the kitchen sink at them to hell with having any control over the game and to hell with how many we conceed.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why Sir Alex stopped playing like that in the early 00's? Or why Conte who will win the league this year doesn't do it? Or Wenger or Klopp or Guardiola or Pochettino? Or any manager at any top club anywhere in Europe over the last decade?
The only managers who do are in teams not expected to win so they might as well go hell mary as they have little to lose.
It really wouldn't work nowadays, football has moved on and progressed. Playing with two up front is effectively giving control over to the other team. You say it would work when teams sit back but very few do now. Its not just the likes of Klopp, Pochettino and Pep who are setting their teams up to press high but Eddie Howe, Karanka and a whole host of managers at teams not expected to even break out of midtable.
If you want to play with two up top then three at the back is the only way it seems possible now. That way you still have numbers centrally so teams have to go wide to get at you, and even then when they cross into the box three centre backs are waiting.
You won't see top teams playing 442 again, they thought you might midway through last season when not on Leicester were having success with it but teams like Watford and West Ham too. And nothing came of it.