Manchester United banter 73517

 

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19 Sep 2016 10:29:24
Things are quickly going down hill, I think this shows just how fragile the confidence or lack of it is currently at our club. The players have had so many changes in manager and coaching staff that they don't know what they should be doing. There is no default way to play.

There are many problems and I think the most important one dates back to the last few years of Sir Alex's reign. Sir Alex adapted to the changing world of football by repeatedly bringing in new assistant coaches, new people and new ideas. It kept training fresh and current, and allowed new ideas to be incorporated into the playing style, this allowed us to constantly evolve. It's no coincidence that our best period in Europe happened while we had a more continental influence from Carlos Quieroz as assistant.
In his final years Mike Phelan came in and his old school ideas started a period of stagnation, there was an idea that we needed to try and adapt and play with a more continental style but we had no one who could fully bring those ideas to fruit. effectively we tried to crowbar a small technical number 10 into a system that was more akin to 1980's British football.

After that we stumbled into the Moyes era, I actually think a lot of what Moyes saw and tried to change was right, unfortunately he didn't have the gravitas to force though his ideas and dissenting voices in the changing room and inner battles for power undermined him. This is one of the reasons I felt it a good idea that Giggs move on this summer.

We then had LvG, who like Moyes before him could see many of the issues that were dragging the club down, he had more gravitas to force several changes through that Moyes struggled with, but his style of football was not the kind of football we at Old Trafford have become accustomed to. This ultimately lead to his downfall. Without the fans backing it was only a matter of when he would fail to achieve his targets that he was for the chop. This isn't because the owners value the fans opinion only the fans money, and with football being an entertainment industry if the fans aren't entertained then they won't spend the money.

All of this happened while the heart of the old squad was ripped out, and not sufficiently replaced and not in a steady enough manner. We don't have to look too far to see what happens when you remove the established players too quickly. In little over 2 seasons after Arsenal's invincible season 9 of the 11 starters of that team were gone, admittedly most were past their best, and few played as well for their new teams as they did for Arsenal. But the issue was there weren't enough experienced players in that dressing room to carry the new players through when things didn't go to plan. We should have kept hold of players like Fletcher, Rio and Evra for another season or so, they didn't have to play every week, but their sheer presence when things didn't go to plan would have helped steer the club though the tougher times. Maybe a run of defeats would have been a defeat an a couple of draws.

Over the last three seasons defeats have become a more regular occurrence and when you are trying to change the way the team are playing, repeated defeats undermines the players confidence in the new way, and by extension themselves. We've reached a point with our players now that every defeat seems to knock the stuffing out of them.

We need to start again, not with a new manager but we need to go back to basics. we need to look at the players and look at the ones who have a future at the club and we need to devise the best system to get the best out of those players. Because this isn't a quick fix, this will take a season or two to fix so there is no point trying to crowbar players into a system to try and gain in the short term, if it is detrimental to the log term progression of the team.

Obviously the main candidate for this is Rooney, we seem to be trying to fit him into a side because he is slightly better than the alternatives, but in doing so it is holding back other players. It is focusing on the short term while disregarding the long term. The club can't start the process of learning to play in a manner that gets the most out of all of the players on the pitch while still hanging onto players who are not our future. Rooney should stay at the club, unless he will become a disruptive influence which history suggests he isn't. He should be kept to add vital experience to the dressing room. But that experience isn't enough to demand him a place out on the pitch, he can helping the players from the side lines, in training and in the dressing room. When needed obviously he should play, and if he can adapt to fit into the new way the team plays and is performing better than others within that new system then he should play.

We have three No.10's in our squad, but none of them are outstanding enough to sacrifice other players in order to set the team up to get the best out of them. Rooney is a fading force, the only thing expansive about him now is his waist line. His touch which was never great has almost totally abandoned him, his lost of pace and his stocky frame has made him slower and cumbersome and the only good pass he has in his locker is 60 yard cross field balls, unfortunately with his first touch and control and the way he sets up to make these passes everyone on the pitch knows what he is about to do long before he makes the pass. Meaning that the opposition are set to nullify the danger long before we can do anything. Mata is a player who's interactions with the fans and likeable attitude means he has many fans, I find myself liking the the wee guy. But every time he has been given a chance to impress in that No.10 role he has failed to deliver. We simply can't afford to build a team around a player who has failed to live up to his billing so many times. The last option is Mkhitaryan, he could be a good option, but he hasn't got the experience or is proven in the EPL, plus to start building a side to incorporate a traditional No.10 with only one potentially good option seems foolish as we would be an injury away from lacking any creativity and a serious drop off in performance.

Pogba is by far our most valuable player, from a playing and a marketing point of view. He is a top player, with massive potential and is at an age where he can have his peak years at our club. It makes most sense to build the side around him. As a player he works best when given licence to roam, find pockets of space and run at teams. Having a No.10 means that there will be a player playing in the space Pogba will look to use. He has always worked best when he has had a deeper playmaker, someone who offer creativity behind him freeing him to use the space in front of him. To really set him free a defensively sound box to box player along side him helps cover the spaces his runs leave behind him. With our current set up a midfield of Carrick, Schneiderlin alongside Pogba will give him that. Carrick fulfilling the role played by Pirlo, and Schneiderlin the one by Vidal. Herrera could be a good option from the bench if we needed more creativity. That set up would allow Pogba the chance to settle back into his new surrounding while also getting the best out of the current squad. Obviously Carrick will need replacing at some point, Blind could help cover him this season, but a long term successor will be needed. Kroos could be an option.

We need midfield balance, once we have that the defence won't be as easily exposed, and we will have a platform to build attacks from. The issue might be that Mourinho has never built any of his teams with a true dee playmaker. He prefers to have a strong defensive shield, with a combative box to box player along side him and a No.10 dictating the offensive plays. Mourinho's teams have normally been solid defensively but reliant on individuals in attack.
His first Chelsea team, had Makelele in that defensive midfield role with Essien that box to box role and Lampard the No.10. If Lampard didn't create Chelsea had a poor game.
At Inter he had Cambiassio as his defensive midfielder, with Motta or Muntari as the box to box player and Sneijder as his No.10.
At Real it was Khedira in the DM role, Modirc the box to box and Ozil the No.10.
Back at Chelsea it was Matic the DM, Fabregas the box to box and Oscar the No.10.

Mourinho's teams rely on the brilliance of their No.10's for creative thrust, and it is no coincidence that when relying on Rooney to provide that the team has looked slow and disjointed in attack. He might have to take a leaf out of Sir Alex's book and bring in a new younger fresher assistant who can help bring him some new and fresh ideas as if he persists with what he is doing atm he will struggle to get the best out of this group of players.

Agree21 Disagree10

19 Sep 2016 11:00:15
shaps
yer your right we looked great on thursday with out rooney?
jose needs a an assistant he has had a mare for the last 15 year, he needs a help.

poor pogba, he needs this he needs that, the lad snd his agent have been telling us he is yhe best player in thr world .
forget what u read in the papers, watch him, not the best player in the french team not the best in juve team, and people want us to build a team atpund him? where was yesterday, where was he thursday.

19 Sep 2016 11:05:55
Really good read Shappy. Reading posts last week after the Europa defeat with posters claiming we are struggling because this is a LVG team still frustrated me. I think as you correctly state, the problem has stemmed further back. What has happened just consolidates how good SAF really was.

I however am not as sympathetic towards Moyes as your post appears and I believe that was the biggest error that has contributed to where we are now. I will not completely criticise Rooney as he has been excellent for us and was a powerful force which at times we see glimpses of but no where near as often as required but I think the majority of people can see he poses a huge problem. When Moyes couldn't attract any top names, he gave Rooney a huge contract, one that other teams would not have offered him. This has resulted in him almost being forced into playing regularly. If someone is on them wages, you will not sit them on the bench or in the reserves. I truly believe if SAF had stayed one more season, Rooney would have been off and the shape and balance of the team would have been a lot more effective.

Moyes also made one signing in that summer window and that was Fellaini. Fellaini is a difficult case because as in the past against us, he is a handful so the temptation to play him and play to his strengths is strong but he is better further up the field than defensively but he isn't better up the field than anyone else we have. But as a DM, he lacks some awareness, the goals yesterday support this. I did think Fellaini started ok this season and I appreciate yesterday was only one game but I think it just goes to show he isn't the right player for us in that role.

I have to say also, I was disappointed with Jose, the obvious choice to bring Mata on for was Rooney but the decision just supports the argument that the team is shoehorning Rooney into the team. I read somewhere yesterday that Jose is trying his best to behave as boss of United and this is leading to his loss of ruthlessness. The old Jose, like SAF was not afraid to upset players and upset the media but Jose is not doing this so far.

I am not totally against Fellaini and Rooney, I just believe they are not right for the starting 11 and cause unbalance in the set up. Would these players be at United if SAF had stayed one more season? I think not.

19 Sep 2016 11:11:49
Shappy. Good post. However, as I wrote yesterday, our team doesn't work hard enough to close teams up top (rooney and Zlatan are hardly going to run around closing people down. They're too old and not quick enough. Also Martial does not seem interested one bit at present) .
Also, we have not bought the right players to attack with intensity and counter attack with speed.
We lack wing play and we have no wingers. We don't have a hazard a de bruyne a mane who get the ball and run at defences.
The player I would be targeting is Perisic from inter. He had a very good Euros and was superb against juventus yesterday.
Jose needs to up his game completely as he's been making tactical mistakes. The one thing that has disappointed me is the lack of intensity and aggression in our game. I honestly thought that mourinho will bring this into our play. But I've seen non of it. All I see are 11 players poncing around with no real appetite to face the opposition or play to 50% of their abilities.
The players and the coach need a collective boot up the arse.
I honestly think that things are going to get worse before they get better.
I predicted us to be champions this year, but having seen the apathy of the team, I don't think we'll make top 6.

19 Sep 2016 11:35:05
Jred

We made loads of changes on Thursday and don't use that to try and argue rooney's case. He has been poor mate and we seem to be a team that puts out a first 11 for the sake of rooney being in there.

I mentioned down below, i think Mickitarian is a much better player than rooney at number 10 and even mata whilst people will argue is slower than rooney but he makes up for it with his vision and passing and not talking about 30 yard cross field passes. A highly recognised ex united player who won the treble told me recently there are loads of players who can do that but the ones that can hit a 10 yards pass from out side the box into the gap with right pace are the ones that are class.

I think Rashford's and Martial's Pace and Mick who i believe has been injured the whole time and not right will be an ideal 3 behind Zlatan. Unfortunately that now seems out as Martial is injured and mick is also not right.

We will endure for a few more weeks but i would bet my house that as the the season goes on will see Rooney's role at United diminish and he will start less and less games as we now genuinely have a better player for that role, which might have not been the case last year.

19 Sep 2016 11:35:19
Excellent post Shappy, very well argued.

19 Sep 2016 11:45:22
I also agree with idea if Carrick or blind sitting at base of midfield, perhaps in front if Schneiderlin/ Herrera and Pogba, two more creative box to box players.

Front three then of Rashford Ibra and martial.

19 Sep 2016 11:53:42
Decent post shappy. Not sure what the sarcastic response from jred was all about. I believe a post of that nature deserves a bit more respect. No doubt it took you a while to post.

Its seems that we are still in a bit of a slump. Not sure that Jose needs a new assistant or anything drastic like that. It's just something that is going to take time. He is still trying to implement his style and influence each player. Players have been poor, it looks like they don't know where they are playing. The midfield is a real issue, pogba seems to get lost or roam into areas that are already occupied. It's very evident that the team needs to be set up in a certain way to really utilise his main attributes.

The problem that sticks out like a sore thumb is rooney. I read a very good article about rooney and the problems he causes where he plays. If permitted by the eds, I'll post the link below, it is a good read. Also ed001 made a great point re rooney above.

goo.gl/f2V9Ac

19 Sep 2016 11:54:51
x files
they are as bad as each other .
i don't understand how you can make an argument for one and not the other.

19 Sep 2016 11:56:05
Jred, Pogba played well against Southampton but seems to have taken the City defeat pretty hard. I agree he hasn't been the overall best player for Juve and I questioned his signing. But he is the player we have now and even if he isn't as good as the hype he is still comfortably our best midfielder. So it does make sense to build the midfield around your best midfielder.
As for Mourinho he has been very successful over the last 15 years but the level of that success has been tailing off in recent seasons. There was a time Mourinho was likely to win you at least one trophy every year, more likely two. But as with life football goes through stages, LvG was successful doing things his way once, is it not possible that after 15 years other managers have sussed Mourinho out?
He was never revolutionary with his tactics, Solid back four playing zonally and narrow leaving the only option to go wide and cross into the box, where Mourinho favoured tall strong players who were good aerially. He had a destroyer in midfield alongside a work horse. Then he'd have a front four with a strong striker who can hold the ball up, hard working wide players who'll track back and a No.10 to dictate the offensive play. Every Mourinho team has been set up the same way. The better players he could bring in for that system the better he was able to perform.
All I'm suggesting is Mourinho learns to adapt to the changing footballing landscape. The best at doing that was Sir Alex, the way he did that was to bring in people with new and different ideas and implement them to keep the team current.

Ports, I'm not too sympathetic towards Moyes but I struggle to blame him for not being up to the task. He made mistakes obviously, and none of us bar Jred are happy with his decision to give Rooney a bumper new deal. But you wouldn't slate your kids for failing an exam if they tried their best. I think Moyes did do his best, he just wasn't up to the task. The balme lies with those who thought he was.
I think Fellaini has something to offer our club, he doesn't suit playing as a No.10, but he doesn't have the game reading ability to be a defensive midfielder. I think the best role for him is as a No.8, box to box. He has a high work rate, and is tough to play against. He offers an aerial threat at set plays and defends corners well. He could easily play with Carrick holding and Pogba along side him.

Schmidfield, I too think we lack a genuine wide option, the problem is that there aren't many of the quality required around. There are many wide forwards, strikers who lack the physicality to play the lone front man role but have pace so they play as wide forwards often on the "wrong" side so they can cut back onto their stronger foot and shoot. The problem with this is they tend to play in the inside wide channels rather than the outside wide channels, this narrows the pitch unless your full backs bomb on to stretch play, the issue with that is it leaves you open to be countered. Perisic is a decent player but not a genuine great wide player, or even potentially a great wide player. Lucas Moura could be an option, Guerrero, Bernardo Silva or Sadio Mane would have been.

19 Sep 2016 12:02:27
Like clockwork from jred.

Who do you blame for United's dip in form?

(A) The manager who is struggling to get the team to perform.
(B) The captain who has been pants for the last two seasons and is shoehorned into the side every week regardless of tactics or form.
(C) The 23 year old who has been back at the club for a month and didn't have a pre-season.

Well?

Of course, it's the 23 year old. He cost a world record fee so he should be winning games single handed from the get go. If only we dropped Pogba so Rooney could show us all how he could run the game like he did last season, and for England.

19 Sep 2016 12:02:39
angl
the team is set up for pogba . he just isn't playing well

ronaldo would look good at left back, so would de buryne .

rooney didn't play thursday and we where crap, the problems run deeper, even if u can't see it.

19 Sep 2016 12:15:11
banny
what do you blame for thursday performane?

19 Sep 2016 12:26:39
pogba
goals 0
assits 0
key passes 0
tried 4231 to fit him in 433 just as bad.
he should be our star man should he not?
maybe not the player you have read about on the paper, watch him for france or juve . the boy is no de buryne.

19 Sep 2016 12:40:02
I blame the entire team and the manager for the last three performances. Nobody is performing to their best. Big problem with confidence, and lack of a clear tactical framework.

However, Rooney has been in decline for years, and has been awful for the last two seasons. Yet, he still plays when fit and is a major focal point for our attack. We have a lot of problems, but giving a consistently poor player a key position in the first team is an obvious stumbling block to solving our problems.

You're quite happy to write off Pogba after a few games, and use the one game in which Rooney didn't play as evidence that he isn't the reason we're losing. But completely unwilling to acknowledge how bad Rooney has been for years. The last three seasons are following the same pattern: Rooney starts as an attacker, doesn't perform, but doesn't lose his place and is shoehorned into the side in deeper positions to the detriment of the team. Give the team a decent run of games without Rooney and then we can make a judgement.

19 Sep 2016 12:49:48
Jred,

One big difference is Pogbas best years are ahead of him while Rooneys are well behind him.

19 Sep 2016 12:50:27
Jred everyone has said its an underlying issue and more than one player it's effecting, why do you so staunchly defend Rooney when he has been as poor if not poorer than most for 2-3 years, it's embarrassing.
Great post Shappy btw, very detailed and on the money with a lot of it, enjoyed reading that.

19 Sep 2016 12:53:28
danny
pogba is a top player i'm not writing him off. but he has been poor .
as have several others .
we have been poor when rooney played and just as poor when he never .
the issues run deeper but you and other just post about rooney.
unless he doesn't play, like thursday then u don't post.

19 Sep 2016 12:57:52
danny no one has said rooney played well .

tell me after watching the match on thursday why united would of played great if rooney hadnt played sunday .

19 Sep 2016 13:01:18
Jred, life hasn't started great for Pogba at United and with his fee expectations are high however this is a player that Barcelona put a significant bid in for, Real Madrid were desperate to sign and Manchester City also showed real interest in. If these 3 clubs are looking at this player then is suggests he is the type of player we should be signing also. The issue is the fee but with no champions league, not being champions of England, we had to offer more than the others and price them out which is what we did. The point is, the lad is talent, and we need to build a team that suits his game and unfortunately, from the games so far, Rooney unbalances this team. Or would you pick Rooney, a 30 year old who unfortunately is past his best ahead of a 23 year old International for a top 10 ranked national side who 2 of the best teams in the world were after and a team who want to be classed as the best team in the world by throwing money at the best players in City?

19 Sep 2016 13:02:28
Rooney is not solely to blame but in order for the team to move on imo he needs to be sold asap.
He is the worst captain we have had in the last 30 years.
He has been below average for 3 years imo.
Get rid asap. If he stays he could split the dressing room. His play is hopeless and they're is no improvement left in him. Others have scope for improvement he does not.

19 Sep 2016 13:15:50
angle
really?
because yourself and others only post about rooney.
did you even post after thursday?
you tell me what was wrong on thursday AND sunday.

19 Sep 2016 13:17:15
The team needs fresh legs and runners. It needs vim and continuity.

Ultimately, we need the manager to start being the manager we know he can be.

19 Sep 2016 13:25:59
Could not agree more, Ken.

He should never have been made captain in the first place. The extra responsibility has hastened his natural decline.

19 Sep 2016 13:14:34
Jred please do explain how we have tried to get best out of pogba. Most games he is playing a pos somewhere between a dm and a bbm, bcz the captain has to play. Against Feyenoord he played most of the first half covering martial as a lft sided dm for most part as we played too deep. Those are not his best positions he is a bbm who needs a playmaker behind him in a 3 man mf. But we can't play carrick bcz rooney must play.

U give 1 game we fail without rooney, where mourinho's tactics were too defensive but forget 3 years of rubbish from rooney, how very convenient.

19 Sep 2016 14:03:44
common.
what was the last game pogba played well?

19 Sep 2016 14:11:37
Jred, your entire argument is that the fact that an under strength United team played poorly in one Europa League game without Rooney, this proves that the team isn't better without Rooney.

Do you really think that's particularly convincing?

The reality is that Rooney has been poor for years, and has been getting incrementally worse every season. He has been given chances as a striker, a number ten, a central mid, a deep lying mid, and even some time on the wing. He has not impressed in any of these roles, and it appears, for all intents and purposes, that every year is a game of shifting him around the pitch instead of just dropping him.

You cannot expect a team to gel in one game. To test the argument that Rooney is holding the team back, you would need to give a Rooneyless team an extended run to properly evaluate it. Nobody has ever said that other players aren't under performing at the moment, but it's clear as day that Rooney shouldn't be an automatic starter, and if his name wasn't Wayne Rooney he would have been dropped years ago.

Honest question, do you think that United can progress in the next few seasons with Rooney as a major focal point?

19 Sep 2016 14:34:18
I haven't stopped posting jred. Plus i always do my best to engage in the live chat so if you are there you'll know my thoughts.

Again, go to the article link I posted, it reflects my thoughts on rooney and what went wrong on thursday and sunday. Much more eloquently put by the journalist though.

19 Sep 2016 14:36:33
jred, you are probably the only poster on here who continuously speaks about rooney, its non stop and extremely embarrassing. It's either staunchly defending rooney or lauding pep.

Rooney needs to be got rid of. He is divisive in that squad.

19 Sep 2016 14:52:21
angle danny gave a look back at your post, u just troll rooney.
why do u 2 th8nk we never played well thirsday and friday?

19 Sep 2016 15:16:41
It's impossible for me to Troll rooney on here. Unless he has got an account set up?

Look back at your posts, non stop Rooney loving. It's embarrassing to say the least.

I post about many other things, not just the one constant like some.

19 Sep 2016 16:00:40
anglr
you dont, all you post is rooney rooney roomey .
its a team game but u have no other opinion.
your a troll, , how do u think we played thirsday.

19 Sep 2016 17:01:52
Look up the definition of a Troll jred.

Don't be getting personal now, I expect more from you to be honest. Maybe you're opinions aren't similar to mine and I find it embarrassing how much you defend Rooney but I'm not getting personal with you.

19 Sep 2016 17:03:30
I suggest you look at my posts jred before making such statements. I engage in many discussions and have over the many many years that I have been a poster here.

It seems to me that you are getting very touchy so probably best I stop replying to you. I don't want you upset over a banter site about football pal.

19 Sep 2016 18:02:34
Angel as you know and have read I have suffered the same sort of treatment and accusations from jred. I think he talks more about Rooney than you or I. But ignoring him is fast where is the gmfun in that😅😅😅😅 ye big troll.

20 Sep 2016 10:00:53
Agree with angelred here jred as I said way above its embarrassing to defend the indefensible, rooneys days are numbered, least they should be and that's not trolling or not appreciating all he's done for us that's just fact for this united team to be able to move on Rooney needs to be dropped, it's plain for all to see, even the biased media are picking up on it.







 

 

 
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