28 May 2016 05:34:34
I honestly don't get this love in with Stones. If he wasn't English and that good on the ball would he even be half as highly rated? The most important job of a center back is to defend. Its the defensive positioning, intelligence and forcing players into mistakes and not getting drawn to the ball or the striker so that you don't get turned that makes a good center back. And he has been very poor at that whenever I have seen him play. He constantly gets drawn out of position.
Morgan and Huth have proven this season that what you need in center backs first and foremost is defensive solidity and you need that confidence that if you aren't playing well your center backs are going to keep a clean sheet and have a complete shutout by being tough as nuts, strong in the air and willing to put their body on the line. You need leaders at the back like a vidic or a terry.
I just don't get that confidence with Stones. He has a mistake in him every game and isn't worth the gamvle right now since we will have to rely on him. Although I wouldn't completely blame him for this season and Martinez should share some of it, I really wouldn't risk 40-45mil to get him just because he can play out of the back. For that kind of money you could probably force Real Madrid into thinking maybe they should sell Varane or even get Marquinhos, both young, much better proven defenders with solid european experience as well. That kind of money could be spent on an experienced center back, perhaps from Italy.
Stones may one day turn out to be good, but we need someone who will hit the ground running as a center back and not someone with potential who could come good few years down the line.
28 May 2016 07:16:23
I'd pick Varane. He would probably be cheaper as well. Maybe we could offer Jones if we do bid for Stones. Varane remains my first choice.
28 May 2016 07:35:01
You make some good points Redfaith, Stones catches the eye as he does look elegant, he can bring the ball out at his feet and some of his long range passing is very good - But what about defending? It seems now the "old fashioned" type of defender Stam/ Bruce/ Vidic/ Shawcross/ Huth/ Morgan aren't valued now in the same light as a pacy, quick footed defender, when really that's what is needed and certainly United needed these last few seasons.
I know Lee Dixon made a very good point this season in commentary of one game where he said full backs now are attackers first and defenders second and in fact defenders generally be it full backs or CBs who actually Love defending are really a dying breed - like Terry / stam/ shawcross/ huth and someone like Stuart Pearce would be pushed a lot further forward now and would be relying a lot on a winger bailing him out. I don't watch a lot of European football but If Smalling is our first choice i'd love a big hard case next to him-especially an organiser.
28 May 2016 07:49:22
Stones will be the new Rio. That's why we need to buy and nurture him now. He makes mistakes as he is still young and learning his trade, plus Martinez had managed him without a defensive bike in his body. Unde Joae, he will flourish.
28 May 2016 08:10:56
If we signed shawcross people would moan that he's not at the required level for man united.
If we signed stones people would moan that its too much money.
Even last year people were moaning that ramos was too old lol.
Obviously we would all like varane, marquinhos etc but real madrid and psg are not selling clubs unless its done on their terms. With pepe and thiago silva reaching the latter stages of their careers, there is no chance real or psg are going to pass up on a perfect ready made replacement.
28 May 2016 08:11:58
We need 2 centre backs though and stones will be a much much better player than Smalling put him alongside Varane etc and he will develop.
28 May 2016 08:54:09
I like Stones, I think he has a lot of potential. He's very similar to Ferdinand, but I still remember Rio making mistakes when he was 24/ 25 on a semi regular basis, so to write off a 21 year old for making mistakes isn't fair.
That being said I don't think he is worth anything close to 45m, but hey how many players are truely good value for money. Consider this the highest ever scoring EPL striker cost 9m. Now argue anyone is good vaule compared to that and it just doesn't stand up.
If your really worried about value for money then the best value players we have had play for us are Giggs, Scholes, Butt, Beckham, Neville ect ect. Its he same people who try and claim that Ibrahimovic would be good value even though he would probably cost us 20m a year to sign him, but they completely miss the point that we have a player like Rashford who will cost us a fraction of that be with us for longer and will probably score more goals for us than Zlatan would.
So only throw the value arguement in if you intend to back value in every deal and not just the ones you don't want while ignoring the lack of value in the deals you would like to see happen. As jred would say, blatent double standards. Lol.
Also there seems to be this odd fasination with "old fashioned" central defenders based on Leicester winning the league. Yet the two best defences this year in terms of goals conceded was ours and Spurs three of the four regular central defenders in those teams were Blind, Vertoghen and Alderwield, then you had Smalling as the fourth. Which of those four would you say were traditional centre backs?
Also which of the starting centre backs of the chanpions league final will be "traditional" centre backs? How many of the starting centre backs in any of the semi finalists in the UCL were "traditional" centre backs?
Leicester are the anomaly not the rule, so why try and imitate that. let's see how leicester do in the UCL before we start jumping on the bandwaggon shall we?
I think Stones could be a great player for us in the future, whether he is ready now is certianly debateable. He certainly would need a top drawer centre back alongside him the likes of which we don't currently have. So he would need to be one of two brought in this summer for him to work out for us.
28 May 2016 09:27:04
Lee Dixon wasn't a bad defender, and I remember him saying that Stones would be top-class. He can see the potential there. With Mourinho as manager, I think he'd flourish.
28 May 2016 09:45:58
Redfaith
You have just described rio at west ham .
You don't get it ok, but it seems eveybody in the game does .
The boy is going to be class.
28 May 2016 10:20:33
I think Stones is a poor defender at the moment. He may be a good defender 3-4 years down the line but I think everyone can agree that we can't rely on him to keep clean sheets next season.
All of your posts doing like excuses being made. I want someone who can defend first and is reliable. Making occasional mistakes is alright but the difference between ferdinand in his younger days and stones today is that ferdinand's positioning and defensive intelligence was very evident then. I can't say that about stones.
We should be getting a finished article for the kind of money it would take to get him out of Everton. There seems to be an awful lot of confidence in stones without him having actually proven himself as a good defender in the first place.
28 May 2016 10:40:51
@Shappy
I don't know what a traditional center back is but I like the center backs to be able to defend first. Being good on the ball is a bonus. As for which center backs in the UCL final are the kind i described the answer is all of them. Ramos and Pepe are brilliant defenders and so are the atletico center backs. All of them are really tough nuts and put their bodies on the line. Defensive positioning of the atletico center backs is some of the best i have seen. Why don't you answer this. How many of the center backs in the champions league semi final were young inexperienced ball playing defenders who were poor defensively?
I don't want a striker btw (want 2 winners instead) but if we buy one then it should be ibrahimovic since he won't stand in rashford's way for more than a year and will be a short term fix. Rashford won't play 50 games next year, it's a squad game.
Also I have no doubt that a bid of 45-50mil will at least make madrid and psg think about selling varane and marquinhos. There are many center banks in the italian league who are much better defenders than stones and can be relied upon. I agree we need 2 center backs.
We have already had an entire season where we had to play with two holding midfielders to protect a vulnerable center back pairing. Can't afford another season of that. I'm not comfortable going into the season with our center back pairing having 2 defenders who aren't good at positioning.
28 May 2016 10:55:05
Red
I would have to disagree at west ham rio was all over the place, i think people look back with rose tinted glasses to be honest .
I think rio was a year older than stones when he moved to leeds and it was prob the second season at leeds when he kicked on.
Your op wasnt really about buying stones it was about "the love in " with stones.
If you can't see the potential in a 21 year old cb then fine others can .
All we can do is wait and see.
28 May 2016 11:13:24
I think we need a ball winning organiser leader defender to play alongside a CB with good feet who can pass and bring the ball out. Smalling is neither of those so I would be looking for two CBs god in and Varane would be perfect for me.
28 May 2016 11:26:24
I do see "potential" there jred. Just not "potential worth buying" for a team which has just one proper center back on its roster.
Ferdimand didn't look all over the place to me at West Ham. He made mistakes but his positioning and not getting drawn into tackles or out of position was evident. Even then we didn't buy him and waited for him to prove himself to be a bit more reliable at leeds and then made the move.
I think we should leave Stones where he is for now and see how he gets on next season. I'd like someone reliable to come in, not potential.
28 May 2016 12:36:21
And pay another 10-20 million, Red?
28 May 2016 12:59:13
Stones, in my opinion, played very well for England last night, proving he's better with better players around him, kinda like he holds the fort at Everton, England he's more relaxed therefore playing better?
I think the same would apply at Utd? (Play better I mean)
I am a massive Varane fan, although Eric Bailly from Villerreal can pretty much play ANYWHERE along the back four, therefore is someone to be considered?
Also, are we interested in Leroy Sanè? I'd love him playing at Utd next season!
We need to get our CB's in order so not even misiles and tanks can get through!
Keep De Gea, we are half way there already guys!