02 May 2016 13:41:13
There was a discussion further down about our squad and the issues with it, depth/ quality ect.
Fresh made a comment about how the squads failings should fall at LvG's door. Well this got me thinking, we have had many failings over the last couple of years. But several posters myself included feel that this squad is far better than it appears and is capable of far better results and performances than we are currently seeing. This is really the issue many of us have with LvG. If we all felt he was getting the best out of a poor side then we'd have nothing to complain about.
So there are definitely issues with this current side, for me the biggest issue is in defence where we look woefully short on both quality and quantity. We also look lacking in ideas going forward, but personally I think the biggest issue going forward is the tempo we play at is so slow teams are able to get back in shape before we can expose them. The other issue we have is we don't have experience in the forward line. Martial and Rashford look like potentially great players. But it would be unfair to lay nearly all the goal scoring burden at their young and inexperienced feet. So for me the issues with our squad is in CB and ST. Other areas are debatable such as midfield or wide right, but in my opinion we have players with sufficient quality in those areas but the way we are playing is not getting the best out of them.
So there are deficiencies within our team, especially in the heart of defence. The question is are those deficiencies really the fault of LvG.
Personally I don't think it is fair to lay the blame for that at his door. At least not entirely.
First off the squad he inherited was full of either old players or player who weren't up to standard. Of all the players LvG has sold can anyone seriously argue they should have been kept based on the performances of those players in a United shirt? I know people will point to the form of Hernandez, but he has almost as many goals for Leverkusen in one season as he had over his entire United career, also LvG was not the first United manager to consider him not good enough to start. Both Moyes and Sir Alex restricted the little Pea to a super sub role. Who else is rubbing it in our faces in their post United career?
So we can't really slate him for any of the sales based on the players sold performances. Most of them were players we have been saying should have been sold for years. Players many on here referred to as "deadwood". But my point is do we know for certain that selling these players was LvG's idea. Many people on here say LvG was hired to refresh the squad, move on older or under performing player and bringing through younger hungrier and more talented players. If that was his brief then doesn't that suggest that the idea of moving on many of the old squad came from a source higher up at the club? Have you ever heard of a job candidate writing the job criteria? No, the criteria comes from within the company prior to the new employee being hired.
Obviously we don't actually know whether LvG was hired to reduce the squad size and move on the "deadwood" or whether he decided these players weren't unto his standard after he started. As such how can we confidently say it was entirely down to him and there for his fault? We can't no matter how much we might like to.
Then we have the issue of who the club have brought in. I say club as the players have been signed by the club and not the manager. A decision to sign a player is made on several levels, its not like a manager just wanders around the footballer supermarket and picks out the ones he wants. A decision is made after analysis is done by scouts and sports analysts, many different things are considered and a short list will be drawn up of certain players who fit the criteria passed down by the manager who himself will often come to the conclusion of what the squad needs after discussions with his coaching staff. Clubs/ agents will be approached to see if a deal is possible, if so then a deal may be attempted, if not then another target may be considered. It is never really just one persons decision.
Now with our club over the last three years we keep hearing one thing every summer, and that is a "marquee signing". This is an interesting thing to hear and we are hearing it from several sources within the media and with Ed's on this site. It is interesting as I can't remember the term ever being associated with our club under David Gill or under the management of Sir Alex. It appears to be a new thing that has come about since they left their positions. So where has it come from? Well we heard it under Moyes and LvG, so the only constant is Ed Woodward. It was said when he first took over as Chief Executive he wanted to make a marquee signing to prove himself. He spent the whole summer chasing Fabregas and Bale among others and ended up with Fellaini. He was so anxious he jumped in with both feet and bought Mata in January for a then club record fee. He then chased "big name" players the following summer and landed Di Maria and Falcao. Then last summer he chased Ramos and signed Schweinsteiger. This need to waste time and money chasing these big name "marquee" signings seems to be coming form Ed Woodward more so than from the managers. And it makes sense, he is the brand salesman and nothing makes selling a brand easier than a recognisable face to endorse that brand. He has either wasted time chasing targets that were never likely to come off or he has successfully signed players for large fees and high wages who don't quite fit the squad or what the squad needs.
If this is the case as it so obviously seems to be then how much blame can we lay at the feet of LvG for those failed "marquee" signings? Maybe this was what LvG was alluding to when he suggested the club needed a Technical Director or a Director of Football. Maybe he is right, maybe we do need someone to strategise, run and manage the off field football side of the club rather than leave it to a brand salesman who is making decisions based on brand awareness rather than benefitting the football side of the club.
People keep saying that LvG is the most important person we need to replace this summer, now although I agree he has to go. Personally things won't improve until the guy captaining this ship understands the waters he is navigating and directs the club as such. That guy isn't Woodward, he is the cause of the rot, and replacing LvG will be a step in the right direction how can we allow the guy really at fault to make the decision about who replaces LvG and allow him to continue his screwing up of our club.
02 May 2016 14:00:49
If your good enough your old enough .
After 12 month in the epl i think martial will be excellent next year as cf.
Defo need a cb .
New signings will be down to scouts managers etc so not sure woodward picks which players we sign it will be somebody elses job to spot the players .
To be honest i think we have bought well, some good players have come to the club for a lot of money my issue is why are they not playing well.
Players that have left have looked better for there new clubs .
And players we have bought have looked better at there old clubs .
02 May 2016 14:04:52
Very good post Shappy. I don't like this chase for "marquee" signings either. Its a waste of time imo and leaves the squad with major deficiencies. Get the club on a respectable consistently challenging footing first. Then we can look to top it off with a big name signing to push it to the next level.
This hunger to become the English Galacticos worries me a lot.
02 May 2016 14:06:49
shappy
1.) Schweinsteiger was 100% LVG's signing, as he wanted someone who knew his 'philosophy' and could detail that on the pitch during the game.
2.) I think everyone agrees that we need a centre back. When you look at moyes reign he had smalling, jones, evans, ferdinand and vidic. Now if you consider blind to be a centre mid and rojo a left back we only have smalling and jones as recognised centre backs. Furthemore if you take into account that jones gives wilshere and sturridge a run for their money with injuries that leaves us with smalling as our only centre back. Now that is a serious failure on lvgs part to not address this area of the pitch. Why sell evans without a replacement?
3.) i don't see what ed woodward has done wrong with LVG. he's been an excellent chief exec for LVG. LVG wanted a fast winger, heres di maria for you. LVG wanted to adress central midfield, here schneiderlin and schweinsteiger for you, the latter was obviously against the policy of the club in terms of age profile but woodward still got lvg his man. LVG wanted a shorter pre season tour, woodward gave him that. The training ground has been altered to LVG's liking. Everything LVG has wanted has been given to him and he hasn't made it work.
Therefore the buck stops with LVG and LVG only. Ed woodward could have easily given him the chop in December as chelsea and city would have done. But no he's stuck by his man and he's let him down.
02 May 2016 14:22:02
Dsg
Good post that.
02 May 2016 14:58:09
There are most likely issues with Woodworm and his lack of football knowledge, and his desire to bring in a big signing with one eye on marketing strategy. However, van Gaal has been allowed to bring in a substantial amount of his desired players, and the reality is that he hasn't been able to make the majority of them work.
A manager is judged on what he does with the resources he has at his disposal. Perhaps a director of football would be a good idea for us, but as DSG rightly says, the buck stops with van Gaal. How many of our players have consistently performed at their best for us under van Gaal? He has been a wholesale failure and the club cannot move forward while he remains.
02 May 2016 15:40:11
I fall somewhere in the middle.
I think that we have a better squad than our performances and league position would suggest but at the same time think that we've made some poor signings leaving certain areas of the squad in need of some serious attention.
I think that we're about 4 first team players away from having a decent starting 11 (1CB, 1RW, 1MF, 1ST/ LW) but on top of that need to bring in a further 4 or 5 players (depending on departures) to add depth to the squad. They don't have to be 'world class superstars' - but be competent enough to be able to do a job from the bench or step in if and when there are injuries or suspensions.
This is, where I think at least, LVG has really messed up. Players like Evans, Welbeck, Chico, Cleverly and even Evra were good enough to fill these positions and also had great experience both playing for Manchester United and winning things (things that you really can't teach) . A player like Chico (who, btw, is nowhere near having as many goals for BL as he had for us) would have made a real difference to our season as would any of the other players mentioned above.
When it comes to acquisitions I find it absurd that you're suggesting that EW is responsible for the signings rather than LVG. Many of the players that have signed in the Van Gaal era are players that he himself has worked with in the past and are far from being 'marquee signings' (Depay, Romero, Valdez and Blind) . Given EW's limited football knowledge I'd be very surprised if he decided to spring Rojo on LVG for marketing reasons and I would be equally surprised if LVG didn't rubber stamp the deals for Shaw and Herrera before they were finalised (regardless - they are two of the better signings made during his time with us) . Martial seems to have been down to there being nobody else available - but again - as he's one of the few transfers that have worked out, it is somewhat inconsequential.
The 'big' players that we've signed are Bastian (another player that LVG had worked with in the past and had close ties too), Di Maria (who LVG publicly called for the club to sign in a press conference) and Falcao (widely considered to be the best striker in the world at a time when LVG was complaining about having a lack of quality strikers at his disposal) .
Perhaps EW pushed for Falcao (although I again doubt it would happen without LVGs approval) - but that's just one out of the 15 incoming transfers and we have no reason to suggest that this was the case.
We have absolutely no reason to believe that EW is signing players that LVG does not want at the club and given that pretty much every other manager is judged by their transfer dealings (with a few rare exceptions) - I see absolutely no reason why LVG shouldn't be.
From where I sit I don't see how the blame does not fall squarely at the managers feet. Either he has brought in the wrong players or is failing to get the best out of the players that he has at his disposal.
As I said at the beginning of this post - I think that it's a bit of both. Players like Bastian, Falcao, Romero and Rojo were poor signings whilst LVG has failed to get the best out of Depay, Morgan, Darmian, Ander, Di Maria and Valdes. Martial, Blind and Shaw are the only signings that have really proven to have been decent - and one of those is destined to be a squad player.
Looking at things from the outside it seems as though LVG has been backed to the hilt by the club and until I hear or see anything that suggests otherwise; I will continue to believe that that is the case. Occam's Razor.
02 May 2016 16:12:58
I'm not saying LvG has had nothing to do with the signings we have made, nor am I laying all the blame at Ed Woodwards door.
What I'm trying to say is that unless you have definitive proof and not just gut feeling or what you think may have been the case actual proof that LvG said "stuff the scouts reports, stuff what my coaches want, stuff what other teams demand or agents I want that player and its happening" then gow can you catagorically lay all the blame for our signings at his door?
You can't, you have nothing but opinion and hunches to base that on. Try getting that to stand in a court of law.
Like I've said many times recently, LvG deserves to get sacked, he has under performed. But far too many people are happy to hang every failure our club has had around his neck. Who will you blame if the next guy fails? Or the one after that.
If you honestly think Woodward has done a good job then you really need to open your eyes.
Do you believe the NHS is being ruined by the doctors or the education system by the teachers as well? Or do you blame the people at the top making the wrong decisions?
We need to replace LvG this summer that much is plain, but unless we remove Ed Woodward or change his role then we will suffer many of the same problems.
Oh and Redseven, with Hernandez I ment his scoring rate more so than how many goals he has scored per se. He scored 37 with us in five years, he has 26 in 38 games for Leverkusen. Or if you will he averaged 7.4 goals a season with us and 26 a season with Leverkusen. That is a massive jump. Hardly an issue selling a player who averages 8 goals a season. We certainly can't fault the club for selling a player who wasn't cutting it with us.
02 May 2016 16:29:28
Shap
Have you any proof that woodward is at fault .
Thats a proper rant, you have lost it pal .
02 May 2016 16:42:14
van Gaal explained how the recruitment process works.
“I look for the players who fit our profile. Then I say to Ed [Woodward, executive vice-chairman], 'I want that player first and that player second [choice]'. Then we go to the third when they [first and second] are not available. I am not buying, I don't spend the money. He is negotiating, I am not. "
02 May 2016 16:46:00
Ed Woodward know very little about the club or football in general but the players brought into the club are on the Managers say so . Managers are employed to build a winning team with the signings etc that the CEO has closed the deal on. Its only 12 months since Ed was the WOLF OF THE PREMIER LEAGUE with the signings recommended to him by the fossil of the Netherlands and look at how that turned out. Knowledge is power and I'm afraid our current Management team are powerless 😆😆.
02 May 2016 17:18:31
Shappy - if that's what you meant then that's what you should have said. The stats given in your last post are also intentionally misleading. You can't compare the total league goals he scored for us with the total goals he's scored for BL in all competitions. If you're going with 26 total goals for BL then let's compare it to the 59 he scored for us in all competitions, shall we?
His goals per game ratio for them is certainly higher for BL but his goals per minute ratio for both clubs can't be far off as the majority of his games for us came from the bench. As we're talking about his ability to serve as a squad/ impact player then surely it's the goals per minute ratio that's important.
Your posts are usually well crafted and I enjoy reading them - so please don't ruin that perception by manipulating stats to try and prove your point. You're better than that.
Going back to the overarching discussion; at the vast majority of clubs the manager will have final say over any signings and so it stands to reason that that is the same case with us (indeed, LVG has publicly suggested this as Jred notes above) . Of course nobody can know for sure - but given the information we have available to us the fair assumption would be that all of our signings have been approved by the manager and with that in mind he is ultimately the one accountable.
Delving a little further into the idea of EW pushing for 'Marquee signings' - I do not see the logic behind him pushing a player on the manager against his wishes.
His knowledge of football appears to be a little flaky but when it comes to the business side of things he clearly knows what he is doing. I'll agree that signing big name players would serve as a great way for him to strengthen the Manchester United brand but at the same time cannot believe that he himself could not foresee the damage that would/ will be caused to the brand if/ when these players didn't work out.
The reason that these players are considered to be 'marquee' is because they are the best players in the world. With that in mind I wonder what is more likely. A manager at one of the biggest clubs in the world being told that he can sign pretty much anybody he wants and asking for one of the best players in the world to strengthen his squad or a man who knows little about the footballing side of things (and who I'm sure is aware of this fact himself) spending ridiculous amounts of money on players that the manager does not want (and the owners and directors of the club being OK with this) . As I said before, Occam's Razor.
Given the number of players that could or would be considered to fall into the 'marquee' category I cannot and will not believe that Bastian, ADM and Falcao were not approved by the manager before they were signed. If LVG did not want them - there were plenty of other top players that we could have moved for that he did.
02 May 2016 17:23:21
Shappy well unless anyone on this site has connections with any of the goings on at man utd were all going off soundbites and conjecture.
What definitive proof do you have that ed woodward is doing a bad job. He isn't forcing lvg to do anything he doesn't want or play anyone he doesn't want.
Youre making him out to be an interfering presence in the mould of perez or abhramovic which there isn't any proof of.
The only thing you can throw at his door is the 'marquee signing' phrase. what's wrong with aiming for the best. Its not like he's out at the camp nou or bernabeu begging neymar or bale to come. he's seemingly putting it out there that if you're a top player and want to the be the main man then there's room at man utd to do that and be rewarded accordingly.
02 May 2016 17:47:18
Jred out of interest who are the third choice signings and who should we have signed 😆😆.
02 May 2016 18:08:34
I agree the buck stops with Van Gaal. He was a big enough name to attract players in his second season. We had Champs Leagie football and clearly the chequebook was out and ready to spend. In his reign we would on paper have looked to have addressed LB (Shaw) RB (Darmian) CM (Herrera and Schneiderlin) and CF (Martial) .
We have not addressed the need for 2 world class CBs. We've not addressed the lack of pace in the team and this shows in our painfully slow transition into atracking mode.
Perhaps Year 3 is where the philosophy kicks on and we challenge? Doesn't seem like it though does it.
With the level of investment made we should have been challenging for the league this season. Especially in let's be blunt is probably one of the weakest leagues for many a year.
LVG hasn't cut it though on paper he should have if supported in the transfer market which he was. Moyes never cut it as the job was just far too big for him. That last sentence sums up 3 miserable post Fergie years. There is only one man to turn this ship around. And we all know his name.
02 May 2016 18:24:09
Shappy, if we've no proof that LVG was responsible for the signings, then the same applies to Woodward, surely?
02 May 2016 18:44:43
Really hard to understand people coming up fairy tales to somehow take some of the responsibility of our total failure away from LVG. Does this guy look like he will take a back seat in anything?
Shappy you write a lot of long posts mate but some of them are pure fantasy with no basis to them.
Let's face it 24 months and can anyone say they like what they see on the pitch from United. We had top 4 at stake and could not muster sh. t in the last 45 minutes. Enough is enough and if this guy sticks around, he will sink us in such a hole that the next manager will need a few years to clean up.
I do agree with one thing, ED Woodward is an incompetent football man to have allowed this to happen under his watch. I would love to see both gone.