23 Apr 2016 12:58:35
When louis van gaal was appointed, he said it would take him 3 years to make utd competetive again. You can't, in 2 years turn around and say it's going all wrong, because it isn't. His job was to bring new life to the club, kick on from fergie days. Apart from all the youngsters, smalling has become unbeatable, blind and lingard have been consistent all season, shaw was well on his way to becoming our player of the season. let's take into consideration that players like rio, vida, evra, rvp, scholes, giggs and possibly now wazza and carrick are all moving out within the space of 3 years. Before we were battered at the emirates, we was first and after that we had many chances to go top before the horror december. That is progress from what he inherited. As for his spending, yes he's spent 280mn quid but his net spend is around 120mn or so which means around 40mn per window, which is fine considering he had inherited a broken team and had to build from almost scratch. In ajax, he won the cl in his third or fourth year, with a core of young homegrown players. Wherever he has gone after that i think he has tried to replicate it but hasn't been given more than a couple of years. Maybe he really needs more time. I agree some performaces have been awful, but he asked for 3 years and everybody was happy back then, so we should judge him after next year. I think that the lvgout bandwagon is influenced more by mourinhos availability than anything else. For me, the ideal scenario would be to let lvg finish his tenure and sign something with jose now for him to take over once lvg goes. Jose has been managing for something like 10 years straight. It wouldn't hurt him to take a year and a half long holiday.
{Ed004's Note - Except Mourinho said he will start his new job this summer}
23 Apr 2016 13:20:14
If there were clear and obvious signs of progress I'd be inclined to agree with you - but we are moving backwards.
It's true that a lot of players have left the club - but a lot have come in and failed to perform too. The £285k per week paid to a certain German and £265k per week given to Mr Falcao last season should probably be taken into account when looking at his net spend as well as the mess that was ADM. In terms of recruitment he has failed miserably no matter how you look at it.
Martial and Shaw (who was a DM target) are the only decent signings we've made and both of those were costly. I think that Depay and Spider will come good too under another manager - but signing the best players in their positions in their respective leagues for more than they are worth can hardly be seen as good management.
Stylistically we're playing terrible football and this will have a hugely detrimental impact on the development of our youth players. He might somehow win the title next year (not looking likely given that he's seemingly failed to even finish in the top four this year) - but if it's at the expense of ruining players like Shaw, Martial and FM - then I'd rather he didn't.
It's going to take our next manager plenty of time to undo the damage LVG has done to Manchester United - and giving him another year will only prolong that recovery period.
{Ed004's Note - One thing you have to give him credit for is his youth development. I can't see how you can comment on him ruining Shaw, Martial and FM}
23 Apr 2016 13:47:49
Id like a new Manager but LVG is blames for everything. i'm not defending him but the squad was in desperate need of a major rebuild. Unfortunately, some bad decisions were made along the way which means it is taking longer. I think Blind has been a good signing, Shaw will be great when he's back, Martial has huge potential. not sure why Schneiderlin doesn't took the same player, but not sure it's LVGs fault. Di Maria was a mistake as was Falcao, I don't think Rojo is good enough and whilst Herrera is a great bloke he has more than long enough to impose himself yet has failed to do so. Don't get me started on Schweinsteiger, I think we signed the name, not the player. Fellaini was a panic buy, and Mata whilst clearly talented has also failed to impose himself.
On the plus side, Lingard has done OK, Rashford has been a revelation, TFM looks like a great prospect, and CBJ and Varel have huge promise. Where the waters get murkier is how the team is set up to play and how LVG sees matches when we all see something different.
I manitain we are not a million miles away, we need max 3 top players and a decision on Rooney - where does he play does he play, does he stay? We then need to play players in their best positions, give youth a chance, and set up to make the opposition think about us.
I agree LVG is probably not the right man to do that but let's not blame hmm for absolutely everything that isn't working.
{Ed004's Note - I think we need 4 players and Rooney sold/phased out. However, when reading your post was thinking what we should do about Rb position next season. I am assuming Darmian is going to be one option however, we have 3 more who can play there. Surely we only need 1 of Valencia, Varela and Mensah (although he can play a tonne of positions and is still young). I reckon this summer Varela will most likely be sold as I think he's too old for another loan}
23 Apr 2016 13:36:44
Ed004- Playing young players because all of your senior players are injured does not warrant praise, in my opinion. If anything we should be asking him why players like Rashford and FM weren't called upon in December when performances went down the toilet.
As for the 'ruining' comment - it might have been a little over the top. That said, I think his style of management will be detrimental to plenty of the young players at the club.
The coaching that young players receive in their late teens and early twenties can dictate whether they fulfill their potential or end up playing Championship football. Discouraging them from making runs or playing through balls now will be very difficult to undo later.
I'm not sure that LVG's philosophy suits any of the players in our squad and consequently most of them look poor compared with how they looked under other managers (Darmian, Spider, Depay, Falcao, ADM, Herrera, Mata, etc) . It stands to reason that our young players would play better football under other managers as well.
{Ed004's Note - I don't see how his coaching affected Muller, Iniesta, Xavi etc in the long run. He has played Martial and Shaw regularly despite their ages and both Rashford and Mensah weren't even getting run outs in the u21's at the beginning of the season.}
23 Apr 2016 14:15:16
For me it is the atmosphere that has descended on Old Trafford. Whether thatis totally ddown to LVG or not the fact is it has become awful.
I know Ed002 may argue that the fans/ topics are as tö blame and there may be some truth in this.
However even with the emergence of theyoung oplayers that we love coming through it has still stagnated.
For this very fact something needs to change.
23 Apr 2016 14:17:22
Undo the damage? The next manager who takes over is going to have a huge choice of talented youngsters to choose from and credit where it's due, you have to give that to lvg.
I'm just saying it took him 3-4 years at ajax to get the team he wanted. Just like there is skepticism amongst the fans now he faced it back then too and silenced everyone by winning the cl. I'm not saying he's going to win it here, but he should be judged after his agreed tenures is over.
23 Apr 2016 14:24:15
What was lvg involvement in brining the likes of rashford to the club?
And coaching them?
Why does he get the credit for these young players.
23 Apr 2016 14:56:30
He gave them débuts he has coached them in the first team surroundings, that's why he deserves some credit, so does pochatino get no credit for dier Kane alli? Or raniari for the improvement in players at Leicester? He might have been forced to play them initially but he still deserves some credit for how they are performing. Same for Klopp he didn't bring any players there but has coached and improved some of them. Or is it a different rule for others?
{Ed004's Note - That's what I'm trying to get across}
23 Apr 2016 14:58:30
Ed004 - Iniesta made his debut for Barcelona on the 29th of October. LVG was sacked on the 28th of January the following year. I'm not sure how much of an impact LVG will have had on him during the 91 days in which Iniesta was in the first team working with LVG.
Xavi could certainly be considered a LVG player in terms of his development and involvement with the first team - but it wasn't until the end of Rijkaard's time with the club and/ or the early days of Pep that people really started to pay attention to him as a top player. By the time he'd made it into his first EUFA team of the year he was already 28 - which is pretty late in the day compared with other players of his caliber (Fabregas, for example, made his second appearance that same year at the age of 20). Given his obvious technical ability I have to wonder whether he might have got to that level sooner under another manager.
Muller, for me, is the only real success story that can be attributed to LVG and even then he was already in and around the first team when LVG came in. Playing a player with obvious talent and ability should be seen as common sense rather than good management.
Martial and Shaw cost us nearly £100m. I should bloody hope he plays them! Rashford and Fosu Mensah came into the side because of a string of injuries. FM has already been dropped in place of returning players despite some fantastic performances and now that Rooney is back - Rasford would be gone were it not for his goals.
{Ed004's Note - Where are you getting the 91 days for? Because I'd put my lifesavings on it that Iniesta wouldn't have turned up one day and started for Barcelona. He'd have been training with the first team for months maybe a year or so before his debut. There have been numerous article about Lvg changing the set up at Utd. Bringing in circular tables, putting in trees and making youth team players interact more with senior figures. He specifically said he would have a small squad so the youth players could step up when senior players were out. I don't think anyone on this site was calling for Rashford to be starting and it took a lot of balls to bring him in. Could have easily put Martial up top and Memphis out left but he didn't}
23 Apr 2016 15:13:02
Ken
Rashford has been at united for 11 years .
He has been involved with and played 8 games under lvg .
There are a lot of people who should get credit for rashford before lvg imo .
23 Apr 2016 15:20:27
If lvg leaves in the summer and rash goes on to be a top player no doubt it will be down to the couple of month he played under lvg .
Bit like we always read about xavi and iniesta who where both products of a very good youth system and dare i it say may of been good players even with out lvg.
Poch and ran get credit for getting there teams playing great footy imo.
23 Apr 2016 15:33:42
LVG stumbled upon Rashford and others through necessity. He played them because he had no choice - I don't see why he should be given credit when his hand was forced. If Fellaini had been fit he would of played upfront over Rashford for sure.
As for saying he needed 3 years - did he not say we would see serious improvements after 3 months. 2 years later, what has got better.
23 Apr 2016 15:39:59
Ed004- When Rashford made his debut it was down to Martial getting injured in the warm-up. Rooney and Keane were both injured already, Wilson was out on loan and Depay was starting on the left that night. There were no other strikers at his disposal. He could have dropped him for the Arsenal game a few days later when Martial was fit, for sure - but he'd have had a hard time justifying that after Rashford banged in a brace on his debut and with every goal since it has become more and more difficult.
Iniesta was playing for the Barcelona B team before making his first team debut. Perhaps he had trained with the first team for a while before hand (I say perhaps as I really don't know. Rashford hadn't been training with the first team for long at all though when he made his debut) . Either way - LVG was with them from June to January that season; so he really didn't 'train' Iniesta for long. Whether it was 91 days or seven months - it was a very short amount of time when compared with the prospect of 18 months.
Bringing in circular tables and trees is all well and good but it's hardly revolutionary. I'd much rather he brought in some decent coaches rather than blowing all the clubs money on poor signings and huge wages. As for promoting interaction with the first team - that's something SAF did throughout his time with us.
Most of the opportunities that have come to our youth players have been a direct result of a string of injuries that LVG could never have realistically predicted. That Rooney, Martial and Keane were all out is the only reason Rashford got a chance. That ADM was poor and LVG was unable to sign another right winger this season (not for lack of trying) is the only reason Lingard is getting game time.
I'm thrilled to see young players getting a chance at Manchester United but personally don't see that being down to the genius of Van Gaal. Regardless; it does not come close to making up for the turgid performances week in week out and consequent poor results.
{Ed004's Note - I'm not sure any manager in the world would have played Rashford over the other 3 names mentioned without there being injuries. Lvg outright said he'd have a small squad so younger players could step up when there were injuries. The players who have stepped up have played well yet it's like lvg can't be praised for anything suppose he's the worst manager in the world who has done nothing right at Utd. We will hopefully be able to look back in years to come and say we have seen a new batch of youngsters come through under Lvg but even then we will have to whisper that on this site}
23 Apr 2016 16:13:31
Ed004 - Plenty of managers give game time to young players like Rashford. Kelechi Iheanacho, for example, has been given plenty of game time this season despite City having Aguero and Bony. Coman, Alli, Galloway, Kenedy are all getting chances at their respective clubs too. The difference is their managers do it out of choice rather than necessity.
The trick to bedding in youth is building a quality squad rather than a small one. Iheanacho has primarily been given chances in games where City are strong favourites or near the end once the game has already been won. Unfortunately - under LVG I don't think we're strong favourites for any matches and there haven't been many games that haven't gone down to the wire (in terms of a single goal from the opposition altering the result) . The fact that a near full strength side limped past Villa (one of the worst sides in Premier League history) recently is indicative of that.
You might look back in a few years time and thank LVG for bringing Rashford through. I will look back and wonder where Rashford might be had Rooney, Martial and Will Keane all not been injured at the same time.
{Ed004's Note - So can we praise him for playing Mensah today even though Darmian and Valencia are on the bench?}
23 Apr 2016 16:21:51
These players are players who have come through under Joyce: he is the one who has been guiding them to the point where they were ready to step up.
The idea that van Gaal planned the squad in a way that youth players who play such a major role is pure egotism on the Dutch clown's part. Yes, he planned to have more youth players involved in the first team - getting some time off the bench or an odd game here and there. However, the man himself has stated that since December we have been witnessing an unprecedented injury crisis at the club. In other words, giving youth players a big role this season was forced upon him due to unforeseen circumstances.
In addition, we know that the club pulled the plug on three transfers in January, and that van Gaal tried to sign two fullbacks on loan to cover injuries in these positions. Therefore, if van Gaal had got his way in January we would have brought in a number of new players, pushing the young lads down the pecking order. Van Gaal has done well with youth in the past, but here is simply swooping in trying to take credit for Joyce's good work, and pretending that he chose to play youth rather than it being forced on him.
23 Apr 2016 16:27:32
Utter rubbish manager and the sooner he goes the better we off we are.
23 Apr 2016 16:51:39
Ed004 - Why should he get credit for playing the best player out of the 3 of them? Surely the credit there lies with the coaches as many other have pointed out.
Had he eased FM into the first team over a number of months by choice I'd be on the same page as you - but from what I can see he has only given youth a chance when he has had no other options. That they have taken those chances is down to the players and the people that have coached and trained them.
If you want to go with the whole 'he trimmed the squad so that they would get games when we had multiple injuries' line - I'd say that was an incredibly reckless approach for him to take.
Had LVG known how good they were I can't help but feel we would have seen players like Rashford and FM given chances earlier rather than when LVG had no other choice.
What if Rashford had struggled to adapt to the first team? LVG would be gone and we'd probably be down in mid-table.
What if Keane or Rooney or Martial not have been injured for the Midtjylland game or Wilson had refused to go out on loan? Do you really think Rashford would have been given a kick? Nothing leading up to that point suggests as much. Rashford could have asked to go out on loan or left like Pogba chose to.
It seems to me like chance has been kind to LVG on that front. I'll concede that he's lucky - but a talented manager? Not in my book.
23 Apr 2016 13:50:45
He needs to go. If he stays everyone knows it's his last year and any authority and future plans he may have would be largely ignored. In these circumstances there will be no progress next season. Needs to go for everyone's sake including his own.
23 Apr 2016 20:50:48
Ed004 I sympathise with you here big time.
Some people will not have one good word to say about LVG. Arguing ridiculous points like 91 days.
All you have to do is listen to what players like xavi and iniesta have to say about LVG himself to know he played a massive part in their careers.
He didn't have to play any of these young players. Your point was perfect, he even said he was going to have a small squad so the youth would be called upon. It's quite simple, but no it was luck.
I'm not his biggest fan but a blind man can see he has done well with the younger players.
{Ed004's Note - Exactly! I'm not trying to claim he has been a world class manager for us etc but I don't think we can complain with the opportunities he has given to the younger players}