18 Jan 2016 09:12:45
Well the performance was awful, we lacked any kind of cohesion. Our passing was disjointed, and our movement can only be discribed as static.
And yet its amazing how a win over the old enemy, can paper over the cracks.
I loved seeing Rojo, Jones and Carrick with the fans, and Herrera's celebration on the bench. It shows a passion for the club and a togetherness that we need to move forward.
Rooney has come into some kind of form, hopefully as it took 20 odd games to happen it will last for 20 odd games. Lol.
I think many of us myself included have been very critical of Wayne. A lot of it is warrented, but we probably do go over the top. He is a marmite player, either you love him or you hate him. I probably hate him because I used to love him. Maybe I feel let down by him. Either way he is atm deserving his place in the team, and probably as the main striker ahead of Martial.
Speaking of Martial, it is obvious that his future is as a main striker. But atm I think playing on the wing might be best for his development. He will find space easier, be under less pressure and can adapt to the Premier league in a smoother way from the flank. People need to rememebr he has less than 40 first team appearences in his career. Henry who he has been likened too, was one of the EPL's best ever strikers, and he played on the wing until he was 22/ 23? Didn't do him any harm.
Schneiderlin needs to be set free, this playing as the hold midfielder is limiting his role on the team. He at his best is a rampaging box to box midfielder, and he needs the freedom to be able to push forward and drive the team forward.
I stand by my start of season opinion that Blind holding with Schneiderlin and Herrera playing as box to box midfielders is our best and most balanced midfield.
To do that we need another CB, which we have known since last season. We are unlikely to sign a top CB in january, but if we could get a player such as Dragovic or Oliveira we would look more settled at the back.
Lets hope we kick on from here, a win against Liverpool saved our season last year, let's hope it does the same this year.
18 Jan 2016 11:54:44
its not all about martial, its what's best for the team and that is martial playing wide as the other options are poor .
18 Jan 2016 11:59:59
i should also say i think it is a disgrace that any united fan would hate a player that has scored the goals rooney has for the club .
a player that has been at the club for 12 year played the amount of games rooney has for the club and hate a player that is know to but the effort in when wearing the shirt "even if not playing well"
its a disgrace any supporter would hate a player of the club never mind your club captain but that's the modern so called supporter.
18 Jan 2016 12:00:40
Good post, Shappy. I too hope we can kick on. Our fixture list to the end of the season isn't too shabby, so we will only have ourselves to blame if we don't get top 4 at least. It is there for the taking.
18 Jan 2016 12:31:46
I tend to agree with Shaps here regarding Martial to play on the wings. He has immense talent but still lacks a bit of composure or experience. Yesterday too we could see that. There were many times when a pass was on, but he chose to take on half the Liverpool side on his own and as a result lost the ball. Anyone else notice Rooney getting frustrated at one time and shouting at the lad. Martial is still learning the trade of PL and wings would do him no harm at all where he would not be marked out by half a dozen players.
18 Jan 2016 12:36:03
Messi played out wide to refine his game and to avoid putting undue pressure on him.
Its a very common tactic to try and help young strikers refine their ability and bring them into the team with less pressure. It was done with Rooney as well.
If a team will create from out wide then a striker who knows what its like to play on the wing will understand better what his wide players want from him for example which runs to make, the timing of those runs.
It also gives them game time in the first team with less pressure. Martial started on fire, then had a couple of inconsistent games and his confidence seemed to drop a bit because the pressure was on him. Since then he has been moved back out wide and has started to rebuild his confidence.
I too want to see him upfront banging goals in left right amd centre, but he is young and will be inconsistent. There for patience is required.
Although you two have a famous lack of patience. Lol.
Jred, hate was probably the wrong word. It was early when I wrote that.
Rooney is a player who at one time I loved and thought he could go on and have a spectacular career. No one can deny he has had a very good career, but it does feel like he hasn't quite fullfilled his potential. Maybe I'm being too critical, or maybe with the likes of Messi and Ronaldo the bar has beem raised to even new heights. Maybe in a world where Messi and Ronaldo don't exsist Rooney's achievements are better appreciated.
Wayne has a massive work rate on the pitch, but he seems to not have the same work rate off it. He certainly hasn't dedicated his life to his career in the same way Ronaldo has.
Either way for me too much water has passed under the bridge for me to fawn over Wayne Rooney. I am greatful for all he has done, and will support him while he continues to play for us.
But my opinion is that we have seen the best of him, and we are probably best off moving him on in the near future. He is on the decline.
Previously I have had issue with him being in the team, as I didn't think his performances warrented it. Even now his performances aren't great, but he is getting the goals, and atm we have no one better to displace him.
Our aim should be to compete at the highest level, and unfortunately Rooney wouldn't get into the Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich team anymore. Would he play ahead of Aguero, Silva or De Bruyne for City?
18 Jan 2016 12:44:37
Shappy, I agree at the minute a blind, Schneiderlin, Harera midfield 3 would be the best but to do that we need a CB and LB as Blind will just be moved to LB unless Shaw or Rojo can get fit.
18 Jan 2016 12:53:34
shappy
so would you sell all our players who wouldn't get in barcelona squad .
and do you rate all our players against messi and ronaldo
for a player who doesn't have a work rate of the pitch (im not sure if he has or not ) he is doing well in his 14th season as a pro
its a shame when supporters don't support there team or players .
fans of other teams would of loved a player of rooneys calibre that has achieved what he has but the modern united fan is very spoilt.
18 Jan 2016 13:04:52
also in decline rooney is still a better player than the likes of mata and herrera for example.
18 Jan 2016 13:19:17
No I don't compare all players to Messi, for a start how do you compare a goalkeeper or defender to Messi.
But Rooney has been called a once in a generation player, a future Balon D'or winner, a player who can achieve at the highest level.
So why shouldn't I compare him to a player who has achieved all that?
Can you hand on heart say that if Rooney had dedicated his life to football like Ronaldo has that he wouldn't have been a better player and achieved more than he has?
Obviously we can't get rid of every player that wouldn't get into the Barcelona team, but we should be aiming to be comparable to them.
Can you honestly say that if it takes three years to achieve that then Rooney would still be first choice at that time?
If he was happy to be a squad player, then maybe he could stay. But I don't believe Wayne would. And his standards are declining, and soon he will not be able to justify a starting spot in a top team. Time waits for no man.
I dk appreciate what he has done, and I do support him when he plays. Stand next to me and hear me cheer him on if you don't believe me. But do I feel Wayne is the future of Manchester United? Of course not, he is 30yo and in decline.
18 Jan 2016 13:20:45
Rooney is by some distance is still our best outfield player imo.
18 Jan 2016 13:48:21
shaps
you could say that about any player .
compare blind mata depay nani to ronaldo or messi.
compare giggs a player who should of done far more with his talent .
you could
compare rooney against any other player to of played in the epl .
second higest goals scored
or any other english player of his generation.
have a look at his goals scored for united . second highest ever
goals for england . most ever .
and yet so called fans "hate him " or want to compare him only against probably the 2 greatest players of all time,
compare him to the players in our current team (thats all that matters ) and a 30 year old rooney in decline is still a better player than the likes of mata and herrera who can do no wrong and get the full support of the same fans who slate a player who has played the amount of games, scored the amount of goals and won the amount of titles rooney has with united.
but that's starting to be the modern united fan.
18 Jan 2016 13:50:52
Jred, that is debatable. But will that be the same next season, or the season after?
The problem is Rooney is tied to a highly paid long term contract. Which far outweighs the value he will have to us come the end of it.
Deano, If that is the case then it explains why we are struggling.
Smalling is one of the best performing CB's in the league this season. With only maybe a few players performing better than him.
Schneiderlin was probably the best midfielder in the league last season.
Is Rooney the best striker in the league? Or the best No.10? I can name many players playing in Rooney's positions playing better than him in the league atm.
Sir Alex had the jist of it, and had it not been for Moyes buckling under the pressure there is a genuine question mark over whether Wayne would still have been a United player.
I digress, I'm not doubting Wayne's achivements, nor his current ability. He is still one of our better players. But we are in a rebuilding process, and can you say Wayne has a long term future as part of this team?
If the answer is no then we shouldn't be building around him. He should be made to fit in around the new image of the team.
Liverpool made the mistake of trying to build a Liverpool team around a 30yo Gerrard. But he started to decline and injuries kept him out for long spells. Then they built it around Suarez and Gerrard was made to tayor his game to fit into the new team. And they nearly won the league.
To keep setting the team up to suit an aging player will not benefit the club.
I don't see us as a club that plays with a No.10, we create from out wide. If we stick to our traditions and rebuild to our strengths then the only positions for Rooney to play are as a central striker or as a midfielder.
If he can't play either to a world class standard then maybe his shelf life has expired at the highest level. There is no shame in that. A day will come when the same happens to Messi and Ronaldo.
18 Jan 2016 13:54:51
Regardless of his past achievements, which we all know are pretty impressive. This season he has not played well at all, even in the last handful of games when he's actually got on the scoresheet he has not played well, personally I feel at the moment he's living off his glory from the past and the fact he's a very senior, respected player off the pitch. Otherwise we'd play Martial up front, Mata as the 10 who was scoring goals early in the season and is wasted as a bloody winger. I love Rooney but I love Manchester United even more and the more times I see him mis control a ball or fail to make a pass and give the ball away the more I think we need to replace him with someone at the level he used to be. He scored the winner for us yesterday but did he actually have a good game other than that?
18 Jan 2016 14:10:37
Jred he has done well, I conceeded that almost straight away.
A lot of his records have come from playing for a top side during one of their most sucessful periods from the age of 18.
As a striker over the duration of his career and the number of games he has played his scoring record doesn't quite have the same kind of shine to it.
534 games for Everton, Man Utd and England with 242 goals scored over a 13 year career. Averages 0.4 goals a game. Or 14 goals a season for United. A good record, especially over so many years. But not spectacular.
Its all how you look at it. He may well end up being our all time leading goalscorer. And he may well break all the records.
But in 20 years time, if a time machine has been built and you could bring back one United player at their peak to play in the current team I doubt many would pick Rooney a head of Best, Law, Charlton, Ronaldo, Shcoles ect.
Which goes to show it isn't about statistics or records but about how you entertain and how you make the fans feel.
18 Jan 2016 14:12:15
shaps
his contract includes bonuses and image rights, as has been explained before brand rooney is worth a lot and any player isn't just paid for what he does on the pitch .
are you still hoping he gets injured?
lets not start to twist this, at 30 united are not building a team around him.
in 3 years he won't be at the club. (prob not at the end of next season )
if you compare any united player to messi they would come up short
very few of our players would get in munich or barcelona team.
a 30 year old rooney in decline is still one of the best in the squad, which is all that counts.
but any united supporter posting they hate a player or hope they get injured is a disgrace.
no matter how much they then try to justify it.
18 Jan 2016 14:25:05
if you could go back in a time machine? dear me i hope lvg remembers that when he picks the team at the weekend.
lol i don't think many would go back in time for mata blind or smalling .
instead of appreciating a player who has spent 12 year at the club, played a number of games won every title let's talk about time machines etc .
lol really lol look at giggs 963 games 168 goals that's 5 a season . SO what
should giggs of done better? yes but so what.
was giggs as good as messi? no but so what i'm a united fan, messi doesn't play for us .
was giggs as good as best? no but so what.
18 Jan 2016 14:51:39
I do appreciate what he has achieved, and have stated that many many times, even several in this thread. I also conceeded that I used the wrong word when I said hate. It just fitted with the marmite anology, which I used because Wayne is such a polarising person. I also stated that in a previous post in which I stated I "ALMOST" wish him to be injured was said in anger and frustration, and was poor on my part.
The fact that you have to bring up my previous statements to defend your arguement shows your on shaky ground.
Your constant using of Giggs or anyone else as a way to prove your point is also absurd.
Different time, differnt generation.
I conceed that I have used two players in which to measure Rooneys acheivements. But both the players I chose are of the same generation, and play similar positions. So are far more comparable to those from that past. Even then I conceeded that maybe I was being harsh on Rooney due to the exceptional levels achieved by those two.
Rooney is in decline, he is still one of our better players, but due to his age and declining ability the progress of the team should not be sacrificed for his benefit. And at times over the last 18 months it has been. LvG's insistance that his Captian should always start is a clue to this. It shows that he is crowbarring Rooney into a team regardless of other players playing well and possibly to the detriment of some players.
I'm more than happy for Rooney to start games, as long as it is in the best interests of the team both short and long term, and as long as his performances warrant him being in the team.
We all know you have a love for Rooney that goes way beyond that of a normal supporter. So I'll drop it now before you have a coronary. Lol.
18 Jan 2016 14:52:26
shaps
just for fun rather than compare rooney to messi or ronaldo or look at his goals to game ratio or work of the pitch or potential reached etc etc everything above.
do it with best, eg compare best to them 2, his goal ratio effort on the pitch, potential reached, walking out on united etc . should be a good read .
before i start getting grief, imo best is a hero of mine.
18 Jan 2016 15:03:58
shaps
i wouldn't say rooney is in my top 10 fav united players .
i just hate the double standards some fans have about rooney.
and the whole modern fan thing of not really supporting players or people who have done a lot for the club, compared to the latest fad.
18 Jan 2016 16:10:06
The stick that Rooney gets whilst others like herrera and mata get lauded and have excuses made for them with every bad performance (which is more often than not imo) beggars belief, the bloke has spent nearly his entire career with us, broken nearly every domestic record and continues to be our talisman.
His performances have dipped yes he does look like he is reaching the end at top level yes but surely he deserves a bit of respect from his own fans.
18 Jan 2016 16:29:01
dean
thats the point i was trying to make pal.
18 Jan 2016 20:06:07
He is the perfect scapegoat jred and trust me we won't appreciate what we had until he is gone.
19 Jan 2016 00:15:07
Jred, you have to admit, he hasn't helped himself over the years with a couple of high-profile, ill-considered decisions.
Other Utd players have flirted with signing for other teams, but usually when the club was on a high. Wayne was considering moving to our city rivals, at a time when we were pretty low, and you have to see how that would look.
Fair play to him, since then he's knuckled down and worked hard, and he deserves his records.
I'll be honest, I never considered him a great. I did consider him to be one of the most exciting talents to burst onto the scene in years, but I think he levelled out as a player after that, rather than continuing his upward curve. However, he still reached a very accomplished level, better than most in England.
He's not the player he was. I think we can all see that, but I still think, at the moment, we're still no better off when he doesn't play. Now whether that says more about Wayne, or the quality of our team just now, I don't know.
I'll always respect what he's achieved at the club, but I could never love him. I'm sure he'll lose a lot of sleep over that :)