02 Nov 2015 14:25:54
So I have been firmly in the we need to give LvG time camp. I never felt he was the perfect manager, but I did feel he was perfect for us at the time we hired him. I also said that I expected him to leave either at the end of his second season or depending how things went maybe stay and see out his third year.
His style hasn't been as forward thinking as I had hoped but I do firmly believe he is hamstrung some what by the players he has available to him. His critics like to point out here that he himself sold on several players who could potentially bridge the gap. But I think we are all in agreement that he hasn't sold a single player who any of us feel had a long term future in our first team. So I won't slate him for moving on players we all wanted to see find new pastures. This refreshing of the squad was needed, and long over due.
But something he said this weekend seriously worries me, his insistence that we have several players who are in the "red zone" is a massive worry. For those who don't appreciate the term, clubs use a traffic light system to evaluate the fitness/fatigue levels of their players. The red zone means the players are extremely fatigued and that increases the potential for our players to suffer a drop off in form or worse pick up injuries. The fact we are only just starting November and already several players are in the red zone is very worrying. Most players wouldn't be in the red zone until the end of January at the earliest say if they took part in a summer championship the summer before the season. So this year I'd be concerned over our south American players at that time but the rest should be fine until end of February start of March as they had a full summers rest. The fact that many are close to burnt out before Christmas is a serious worry. I know we have a small squad but that shouldn't be too much of a issue as long as the squad size and the duration the players have to play in are taken into account when making decisions to base the training. I could make allowances if this was LvG's first season in England, but he's been here a year now and fully understands the league and what its demands are.
A few people within football have questioned LvG's training techniques and say he can be too demanding. Maybe there is more to that than I first thought.
The question is are our players really in the red zone or is he lying to cover for poor performances. Either way it is a worry as if he is lying then either he doesn't know why our performances have been poor or the reason they have been is worse than our players being in the red zone.
I have been unhappy with the performances over the last few weeks and our play has seemed to deteriorate rather quickly. The style before that wash't the swashbuckling we would like to see but a more measured and controlled style. We had three performances on the bounce where we won 3-0. Great results and good performances, but our play since then has crashed. Either our confidence has been hit or our players have hit a fatigue wall and can't push through it. Looking at the way we bounced back from the Arsenal defeat to beat Everton I wouldn't say its a confidence issue.
The question is where do we go from here? I think we have to keep LvG until the end of the season, or at least until we are out of all the cups and top four has been confirmed. But a change looks like it is needed in the summer, I don't see how much further LvG can take us. He has cleared out the squad and refreshed it with some very good players, we now have a very god base to build on. He has restored our confidence and our steely fighting spirt, we are now tough to beat and teams come to Old Trafford and show us respect as seen with City.
I'd like us to approach Ancelotti with the view of him taking over for next season. He is the best available, and if he agrees something now he can start planning and maybe even passing on some targets to our board for us to start work on. making a transition much smoother. Obviously it would have to all be kept hush hush and no one could know until the club are ready to make an announcement. But steps maybe should be being made. As if it is how LvG has stated and our players are knackered by November then we need to start looking towards the future with our club.
{Ed001's Note - it also should be mentioned that one of those players claimed to be in the red zone was Phil Jones. He has made what 3 full appearances and 3 sub appearances, if I remember rightly and had a full week off between matches. No way he should be anywhere near the red zone after a week off unless badly handled.}
02 Nov 2015 16:03:07
Shappy if we don't go for Anceloti who'd be your second pick and should we consider Simeone?
02 Nov 2015 16:04:47
After spending £350 million do you still think a manager should be hastrung by the players he has available to him? I don't.
02 Nov 2015 16:48:39
mbd, Ancelotti is the most obvious choice. But other names who should be under considerations for me would be Conte, Loew, Koeman and Simeone. With Schmidt, Cocu and De Boer also not being totally ruled out, although they may need another couple of years before they are ready for a club the size of ours. I'm a fan of Pep but don't think he would be well suited to our club or the Premier league. If he did come to England Arsenal would probably be the best fit for him.
Fresh, don't get hooked up on figures. Yes a lot of money has been spent, but all the players he has brought in were needed and yet we are all in agreement that we still need at least one more CB but probably two, a world class striker and a world class winger. So no I don't think we can expect him to be able to replace 18 players in a 25 man squad in modern football for less than 350m if you are looking at the right quality. We could be looking at 35m for a CB with maybe another for around the 15-20m mark, around 50m for a striker and 35-40m for a winger. that's around another 140m for four players we need. That goes to show how much money is required to buy a title winning squad.
02 Nov 2015 17:03:00
I think that Rooney must have gone INFRA-RED considering his drop in form.
02 Nov 2015 18:51:15
Personally, I wish some of our players would go 'Red Ross' and show some bloody passion.
02 Nov 2015 18:59:11
Well said Brendan.
02 Nov 2015 19:14:54
You a talking waffles in regards to £350million not being enough to rejuvenate and reinvigorate a whole new squad Shappy. If that money was spent smarter and with a clear vision we would be in a much better position. At £40million a player we could have had 9 top players who could have been long term or even at £50million at least 7 top, top players. Aside from a few players as I stated above the cash has been largely wasted in my view.
02 Nov 2015 19:17:02
Top post Shapster. I don't always agree with all you say but you always add value, really interesting post.
02 Nov 2015 20:19:06
Maze, 350m I think its you who's talking waffles. Its not even 250m mate that has been spent. This is why its best to avoid financial debates about the club as we don't even know the actual figures.
Look at the squad as a whole do you think whoever comes in next will have to sign 10-12 players? No whoever comes in next will be able to complete this squad with 4/5 signings at most, which is not that far off of how many most clubs make each summer anyway.
Your just trying to put you neg head spin on it.
02 Nov 2015 21:01:43
Shappy as stated above I was working on £350million as that was what you and Fresh were working on. Your completely missing the point which is if the money was spent wiser the 10-12 players that have already come through the door would be of a better standard. Do you understand?
As for financials I know enough to understand how it works, granted I do not fully understand every little thing that goes on but I have a pretty decent understanding. Going by what you have quoted above and forgetting that you still have to pay to get rid of players it is you who should brush up on their footballing financials.
02 Nov 2015 21:53:40
Interesting post Shappy. In addition, Carrick and some of the other senior players approached the manager a couple of months ago and expressed serious doubts about the training methods. I think the term reported at the time was "flat".
It is up to the manager and his coaching staff to ensure the players are kept happy and the training remains interesting. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case and it is showing in their fitness and play on match days.
The manager has to get off his high horse, get his head out of his backside and admit some responsibility and do something to change for the better.
02 Nov 2015 22:33:46
The point was about how much has been spent on transfer fees, wages and other cost through selling players obviously count as well but no one knows what they are so its impossible to discuss them.
As for peoples understanding of the finacials, the point I was trying to make isn't how much you understand about how it works but the lack of knowledge of the actual figures.
The club is based in Manchester but the business is based in an american state which has very shadowy laws in terms of what finances you have to declare and where that money has come from. When the Glazers moved to do this I know Red Man was very concerned as to what it ment.
But it means the figures that come out and are released are not a full breakdown of what has happened. Effectively its just the in and out figures and everything that happened inbetween is never disclosed.
So we will never know how much we actually paid in transfer fees, in wages, in agents fees amd other legal costs of signing a player. Which makes it almost pointless even bringing up the costs as we are just plucking figures out of the air. It is why Ed002 has the good sense to avoid all questions on finance, and maybe something we should too.
And to be honest people only bring up money when they have no other arguement, so they throw a made up figure out as if that validates their point.
02 Nov 2015 22:45:35
Wasn't there a problem with Moyes's training methods also? He wanted them to work harder and longer or something to that effect.
03 Nov 2015 00:23:01
Yeah Maze. I'm sure all teams train very hard but it's what you do that matters. It's like having someone at work doing all the hours God sends but then you have someone who works less hours but more efficiently.
The players don't seem to be happy and that is the manager's fault and also his responsibility.
03 Nov 2015 09:08:13
Like Schmidfield has said it totally depends on the kind of work being done. You have fitness work, ball work, and tactics meetings. With a smallers squad you are better off doing less fitness work as they gain fitness through playing as well.
If wr have players in the red zone already then we are working them far too hard on the fitness side of things.
As for the players saying the training was "flat" that would suggest they were doing a lot more fitness and less ball work. When maybe it should be the other way around.