30 Sep 2015 10:43:51
Beast,
Fergie football was never going to last forever, and i also recall us having a boring season and some shocking performances under him but that's OK right ? because its fergie its OK!
Mourino parked bus 1-0's everywhere but that's OK because its Jose,
Lvg gets us passing and understanding the game more, he actually uses the whole team and we don't have no mega star yet we are top!
30 Sep 2015 11:02:22
LVG has won nothing with us or for us mate so I don't get your comparison to Fergie at all. Our trophy cabinets bulged during Fergie's era and the occasional year that the team did not play great was accepted as you knew he would always have us back on top soon playing well. Until LVG wins some trophies with United he will not be afforded the same trust.
Found what Ferdinand said quite interesting recently sharing what him and vidic talked about about our transfer activities, which was along the lines of "imagine how much more we would have won had fergie had the funds to buy like we are today"
It is no secret and maybe Fergie does not admit it but in his last 5 or 6 years we were financially restricted due to servicing our debt and he got incredible results with what he had to work with.
30 Sep 2015 11:37:00
Good post GCU
30 Sep 2015 11:49:07
GCU,
Fergi may have been restricted, but there were certainly obtainable targets out there. LVG is in his second season and has nearly new 11 playing. If Fergie had been given more funds then yes we may have won more. I'm going to reserve judgement until the end of the season.
Consider this, the Glazers may well have realised that after Moyes era money would have to be spent in order to maintain out status as a top European club. Were they naive when Fergie announced his retirement plans to them. Could Fergie have bought some players in January to help the new manager settle in.
How many top clubs require almost a new defence and midfield to an extent.
Smalling and Jones were poorly managed by Fergue and co. Every time they got injured they would return to training for 2-3 days then be declared fit to play and get injured again. LVG takes a different, more sensible approach. We are seeing this with Smalling. His fitness levels are better but his injury proneness is down.
Another thing to consider is that the transfer fees paid now are considerably higher now than what they were 3-5 years ago. Now that th EPL teams have this new deal in from BT sport, we will always be charged top dollar.
30 Sep 2015 11:51:21
i was not comparing the two 1 i was just saying because others do it it with a reputation its ok!
but because lvg has not won anything yet its not!
No logic in comparing the 2 its just the point is we played badly most of the last season under fergie.
And regarding fergie spending all this money he would of been a success? so we can now predict the future of what has never happened :)
30 Sep 2015 11:55:04
Big V - I've made my views pretty clear over recent days, probably not wise for me to keep repeating them. I didn't enjoy the football of SAF's last couple of seasons either, I have never said otherwise, so your point is not valid. Just like the point GDS2 made yesterday about him not seeing me praise LVG last season when we were entertaining and winning games, when in fact I did east humble pie and expressed my pleasure at what LVG was now doing.
By the way, LVG has shown we can win playing exciting football, it all changed when we lost to Everton (unlucky to lose), I was one of the few praising that performance, but it all changed after that freak result. I think LVG needs to man up a bit and stop retreating to this shell of defensive football the second something doesn't go exactly to plan.
30 Sep 2015 11:56:25
Forgot to say good post GCU, I agree with you, but do think he tried to build for the future and didn't allow those players enough game time so we had wasted talent and a harder job for his successor.
30 Sep 2015 12:02:27
GCU
SAF got incredible results in his latter years based quite strongly and centrally around the players who were embedded prior to the Glazer take over, Scholes, Neville, Giggs, Ferdinand, Rooney and even Ronaldo to 2009. It was when they faded and there was a lack of investment plus a fudged handover that we struggled. Investment should have come in 2009 when Ronaldo left but the fee stopped us reporting a loss.
As to always thinking SAF would bring us back, well that wasn't the case around 2005 when there was significant frustration
Agree with you on the winning trophies point, it buys time for every manager.
30 Sep 2015 11:52:47
Agree gcu. The change at the club we are going through now is not unprecedented. Fergie had a similar job to do in mid 80s in terms of rebuilding a full squad. Even he could not give instant success but he was laying the foundations for a sustained period of success built on youth and experience. Lvg is doing likewise
30 Sep 2015 12:33:00
Some of the posters on here have said they wouldn't mind loosing if it meant watching exciting, attacking football. Well I watched Arsenal last night playing that way and I don't think many of their supporters would agree with these sentiments at all. I'm happy to watch controlled possession football that is less exciting but ultimately delivers wins and hopefully some trophies to boot.
30 Sep 2015 13:25:24
Lets be fair to beast he did praise the team during that run
30 Sep 2015 13:40:44
Unitedred71 - There has to be a happy medium. It doesn't have to be one way or the extreme version of the other. At the moment we are extremely cautious, I'm just asking for him to open up a bit, not full hog yet if he doesn't think we are ready, but just a bit to see if the players can be trusted to express themselves a little. The problem is whilst we sit at the top of the table he would be foolish to change a formula that he likes, so it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Just imagine how many goals we could score if we are now scoring virtually every chance we create?
I think anybody looking at our team last season and this would be thinking "wow what a group of attacking players", we haven't really seen any flourish attacking wise, (too early for Martial who bucks the trend), yes we are solid, but we have some really exciting players who are not exciting.
30 Sep 2015 15:19:30
Madhatter
No manager will make major investments into new players when leaving the club and no ownership will sanction those transfers. It goes without saying every new manager wants to select his own players and does not want to be burdened with his predecessors choices as they each have their own views on how a team should be set up, what type of players they need and want to spend that money themselves.
Fergie buying for Moyes or whoever else we were talking to was never an option. I do think we wanted Guardiola ad not surprised he took the Bayern job as the guy after Fergie was always a casualty.
In terms of fees we have always been charged the extra because of who we are during Fergies, Moyes, LVG and for the foreseeable future.
Redman
Everyone agrees that we should have invested post Ronaldo but the global finical crisis imo did not allow us to do so and we got caught like many others.
Not football related but I am friends with an US based family that used to be largest real estate listed REIT in North America, who by any measure ran a great company but acquired a competitor in 2007 and took on major debt in the acquisition. Due to their inability to refinance the debt on that purchase had to declare bankruptcy in 2009 because the banks were pretty much insolvent.
Our inability to refinance the debt at more favourable terms ended up killing any meaningful investment in players and all we did from 2006 to about 2012 was spend a bit on players and making sure we meet our debt obligations. (Read somewhere cost to date about 800 mill)
Only till 2 years ago when we finally refinanced things and the additional commercial revenues have we been able to steady the ship were the cost of servicing that debt today is a non factor to some extent and allows us to spend freely if the players are available. If you remember correctly I was one of the few who disagreed with many here exactly 2 years ago that we will spend big and buy players. I believe we will spend over 100 million next summer net too BTW.
Ken
The difference between when Fergie took over and LVG is quite vast. We were a club lost for years when Fergie took over and hardly won anything and a complete mess and the expectations were not as high. We won the league 3 years ago and a huge club today by any measure and the expectations are at a different level.
Not to dwell guys I am delighted with where we are at the moment in the league and if we make a sustained challenge for the title even if we do not win it, i believe it has been a successful season.
I would like to see us play better and the next 6 to 8 weeks will tell us if we are on the right track when we have played the cream of the league. (liverpool is not a top team and i can't see their manager lasting the season)
We also need to show that we are on the right track in Europe. If we fail to qualify from our group in Europe for me he has under delivered substantially.
The managers own words was he needed 3 to 4 months to make his mark, come January he has had 18 months on the job, backed significantly by the club in terms of outgoings and incomings so time to deliver results and better quality of football.
I guess it starts with getting a result tonight against a team who many here do not rate, I do btw.
{Ed007's Note - A lot of people on here didn't rate PSV either, it's rare that you'll get an easy match in the CL these days - unless you're playing against an English team by the looks of things. (giggle)
30 Sep 2015 15:22:17
Beast - I think that's a valid point of view. There has definitely been an improvement since the introduction of Martial. He adds that threat that has been missing. Spurs aside we've looked the better team in all of our games (even the losses). We can be frustrating to watch as there seems to be no urgency to score (although this can be interpreted as controlled possession)which is not something we're used to and if we go behind there's not much in the way of a late rally, which is alien to most of us. I do think LVG is getting the hang of the league though and he understands the players capabilities better. The substituting of Darmien for Valencia against Southampton was a good example of this. October will be the litmus test for both LVG and the team as to whether we're genuine title contenders or young pretenders.
30 Sep 2015 15:47:18
Ed007
I said word for word PSV would be difficult and thought a draw was a good result, which is generally the case in Europe when playing away. To be fair the accident with shaw had a huge impact on the game and even with that we deserved a point out of it.
Wolfsburg is a different kettle of fish and i reckon they will qualify from the group and its up to us to make sure we are also on that train. Expect a narrow victory for United.
Arsenal has Self destructed with Giroud first and that joke of goalie last night.
Chelsea got what they deserved, porto was the better team.
I reckon city will find it difficult tonight if Silva and Toure don't play and expect them to lose. If they play I expect a very tight game and will probably bet them for a win subject to di michelis not playing. (if he plays bet them to lose lol)
{Ed007's Note - I've watched a fair bit of Wolfsburg and I'm looking forward to tonight's game.}
30 Sep 2015 15:48:54
Beast
But can you see the progression now? we are slowly starting to play better football. He obviously felt that last year there was a way to get in to the top 4 and he achieved it. This year he has managed to offload an awful amount of players and buy his own, implementing his own style and now we are starting to see a more comfortable utd where the football is much better.
I think we are starting to see the players he a bit more creative. Martial has given us another dimension
30 Sep 2015 16:33:23
Angelred - Yes mate, we have certainly improved, the trajectory is good, I just wish it was a bit steeper.
30 Sep 2015 18:47:47
Well let's keep the fingers crossed that we will reach that point where we are frequently discussing the consistency and quality of our play.