29 Sep 2015 14:06:29
Lots of discussion on here again about our style of football, and differing views on its entertainment value. But to be honest, perhaps the bigger debate should be about football in general.
The EPL has been showcased is the best in the world for a long time now. But in all honesty, is that more to do, in reality, with advertising from the media and TV companies?
The EPL has certainly been one of the most entertaining to watch, but that has also in large parts been to the detriment of football in this country. Just look at the England team. ( of course the number of foreign players is also a major issue there, but that's another debate ).
The huff and puff, 100 mph game is entertaining, but how much success would it bring now? The game has become much more technical in recent seasons, and this is something that all the top teams are showing.
In the past, the ball has been like a hot potato in England. But now, more and more.managers and teams have realised that to dictate games, you need possession of the ball. I think the days where you see 11 men(well 10 I suppose) running around like lunatics will be few and far between. But possession football does mot have to be boring. With the right players, it can still entertain and be good to watch.
Going back to United, LvG has come in with new( to United ) ideas , or philosophy or whatever you want to call it. He has made huge changes to the playing staff, spent lots of money and asked.them to play in a completely different way than many of them have been used to. But, is that really a bad thing? I'm not.trying to go down the road of "he needs time" etc. But with half a new team, a completely different approach to style and tactics, does anyone really expect to see instant returns.
I think the fact our players are now all becoming comfortable in possession, and we are controlling the majority of possession in most games is a good thing. It may mot ne the most exciting, yet, but it does have the potential to be very successful.
Until the arrival of Memphis and Martial we certainly did lack pace. That has now been addressed, and the team looks all the better for it.
I know a lot of posters don't like our style of play, but as the players get used to each other more and we keep.improving our ability on the ball and in possession, I think we are going in the right direction.
You know the saying., "you have to walk before you can run", well I think that I very appropriate for this United team.
They are learning a new brand of football, albeit lacking a bit of pace, as a team, going forwards. I do not, in all honesty, think LvG tells them to go out and attack slowly. If that was the case, why would he spend so much money on two quick, young players?
I think the plan is to teach these players to be comfortable.with the ball, to keep the ball, not go back.to treating it like that hot potato. As they become more comfortable with this, I really think we will see the team attacking with more pace and directness.
Maybe then, more of us will be entertained. Possession is not a bad thing, it's what you do with it that counts. And lately, I think the signs are very promising.
{Ed007's Note - If players at Utd aren't comfortable with the ball then they shouldn't be at Utd, in fact you really shouldn't be a professional player, Utd should not be signing players who are incapable of doing the basics of the game.
Unless you're a young kid joining the club you should already be comfortable with the ball at your feet.}
29 Sep 2015 15:02:29
what is it that he is teaching seasoned pros (who have played under other top managers ) that is so special.
united have top top players martinez or koeman wouldn't need 12or 24 month to introduce there philosophy.
possession football is nothing new infact teams like barcelona munich and madrid have moved on and gone a bit more direct .
29 Sep 2015 15:57:09
jred,
It isn't that easy to just come in and win the league though, there are 3 or 4 other top quality teams with players as good as ours who can win the league, so there has to be something different in order to be the team that comes out on top.
29 Sep 2015 16:15:31
gds
who said anything about winning the league?
im sure its not meant to be but post like the one above just come across as a lvg love in.
what is it that lvg is doing that is so special.
possession football is nothing new.
managers need time that's a given but lvg isn't re inventing the wheel.
29 Sep 2015 16:27:32
Nooooo jred don't make this an lvg thread lol :)
29 Sep 2015 16:47:16
ctr
yer that's a good point, got sucked in
29 Sep 2015 16:51:07
jred,
Not sure anybody said he is inventing the wheel? I know other people on here have different views about what is successful, but for me trophies = success, style can come later, so I imagine the end goal is all about winning the league.
Martinez and Koeman might be doing a great job, they could come in and get players playing fine, but what have they both won as managers?
29 Sep 2015 16:58:32
Who have they managed though GDS2? I hope style comes.
29 Sep 2015 17:06:00
koeman has won the title with ajax and psv and the cup with valencia.
he has won 3 league titles in total, lvg has won 2 during that time period .
29 Sep 2015 17:06:35
Big V touched on it in a post below, he has come in and got rid of 20 players of the books and managed to bring us to the point where it is evident we have improved significantly. I would say that's quite an achievement for any manager to do that.
We have been extremely blessed with the most successful manager of our era in SAF, I'd actually go beyond that and say utterly spoilt by what he achieved that nothing will ever seem to be good enough for some man utd fans. LVG has won everywhere he has been and will here too whether he plays the style of football you like or not.
29 Sep 2015 17:10:15
koeman and lvg both took over at the same time whos done the better job ?
29 Sep 2015 17:19:07
When Koeman took over Southampton were 8th, they finished 7th last season and are at this moment in time 10th.
LVG took over when United were 7th, finished 4th last season and at this moment in time 1st.
It is obviously not as simple as that but it obviously depends on what you class as a better job, it is almost impossible to compare the 2, but at the moment we couldn't be any higher and Southampton are lower than when Koeman took over.
29 Sep 2015 17:26:38
angle
you make a good point about us fans being spoilt.
its as some fans just take it for granted that we will win things.
so how many cups will lvg win at united
29 Sep 2015 17:31:58
Ed007, Yeah I take your point, but do you think that English teams, historically, have been good at keeping the ball and comfortable in possession? Maybe my post came across too literally. I realise any footballer should be comfortable wit the ball, but the typical 100mph English game that people still crave does not lend itself too controlled possession based football. It is fast, furious end to end stuff. Win the ball, attack, give it away again and so on. It is exciting and entertaining, but has not served us particularly well in European and International football.
My point was that LvG is playing a more controlled possession based game, and that, in theory should be a good thing for both United and the English game in general.
United are by no means the finished article, but are on the right track. If they can combine the possession, and up the speed with which we break and go forwards, it will be a much better brand of football to watch.
Jred, why turn it into an LvG love in again? You say possession football is nothing new. Of course it isn't, but it is in many way for United. I am just saying I think it is good that we are keeping possession better. We are still too slow going forwards, and that needs to change.
But many still complain about it not being the United way and so on, and I agree to an extent. I just think that going back to 100mph, 442, you score 3 and we'll score 4 would be a step backwards.
29 Sep 2015 17:38:48
gds
i think its hard to use this season as its only september.
you could argue koeman took over and lost his best 4 players .
lvg took over a team that should get in the top 4, spent a lot of cash and got 4th.
ive been impressed with koeman since he took over, i don't think he has done much wrong .
and like you pointed out he was won more titles than lvg since he became a manager ;)
but it all seems to be getting away from my original point
29 Sep 2015 17:51:57
In that period LVG has also had 2 stints as Holland manager and taken 2 years out so 6 years so you have to factor in those years of being unable to compete for a title.
Koeman also took over a title winning AZ and it didn't go too well for him there.
Both managers now are in totally different situations so it is very difficult to compare but we made the champs league last year and are now sitting top of the table. So I'd say LVG has been doing a slightly better job :)
29 Sep 2015 18:02:36
betty
to be fair i posted
im sure its not meant to be but post like the one above just come across as a lvg love in.
i just don't see what's special about what lvg is doing .
i agree with what bond said .
thats not to say lvg is doing a bad job, his clearly not .
i don't really like his style of football but that's my own opinion .
i can remember watching munich under lvg and it was boring to watch.
a bit like barcelona where when pep left, they where a good team but it was all about possession and it was boring .
munich stuffed them and barce changed, they play a different brand won the treble and imo are great to watch .
29 Sep 2015 18:06:57
angle
i would say its very hard to choose to be honest .
but going of last season i would maybe go for koeman .
29 Sep 2015 18:10:26
angel
just out of interest what position in the table do you think southampton should of finished last season?
29 Sep 2015 18:12:32
Jred
I think he will at least win a league title within the next 2 years. He was given 3 years and I think he will see those 3 years out and possibly get an extra year depending on what he has won and importantly too if there isn't another manager available at said time.
He clearly is not the answer for the future but what he is doing now is placing a solid foundation for the next hopefully younger manager to work from.
29 Sep 2015 18:17:29
i think at the end of last season most people would of said united did ok, 4th was about par 5th we might of been looking for a new manager.
but i think most would agree lvg does a decent if not excellent job last year.
i thought koeman done a great job with southampton last season when you take every thing in to account i thought they had a really good season
29 Sep 2015 18:20:01
I think they definitely deserved to be ahead of Liverpool but the lower down they are the happier I am. I think 7th was a very fair assessment of how they did. Koeman did a brilliant job. I actually rate pochettino higher though. Would he possibly be an outside bet as a future man utd manager because I think he could possibly be a real/Barcelona manager.
29 Sep 2015 18:22:31
Jred, this type of football is not my cup of tea either. I too found Barca, at their best, boring to watch. I am sure there is a brand of football somewhere in between that would be successful and also entertaining. I take Bond's point about players should be comfortable with the ball, and I wholeheartedly agree. But sadly, it has not always been the case with English teams. Too many players are not comfortable in possession, and just get rid as quick as they can. Like I said earlier, its like a hot potato.
Barca have evolved, just like Munich have and Madrid have. But they are still comfortable in possession and keep the ball well. I just think if United, under any manager, can continue with keeping the ball better, like we have been doing, and combine that with quicker forward play and quicker counter attacking we will get the best of both worlds.
There are still many areas to improve, but I think the signs are good and the improvements are there to be seen. I just don't agree with this idea that we are no better than the Moyes era, and that our football is as bad as some make out.
29 Sep 2015 18:50:04
betty
i think most can see we have improved.
i honestly think this is a good squad i think we have a better team now than the one that last won the title.
angle
you say koeman did a brilliant job last season, do you lvg did ?
29 Sep 2015 21:14:15
I said koeman did a brilliant job on what he had, but I also think LVG did too on what had gone before him and the massive changes that occurred.
As I said both different challenges at two different clubs so it can be quite Aird to compare. But I'd like to think we can judge LVG right now on where we currently are sitting