20 May 2015 21:18:12
As usual, there are a lot of different views today about how successful our season has been. There have been the usual moans from the usual people. Fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinions. And as they say, opinions vary.
But what gets me is this idea that, just because some of us accept that all our short coming are not just solely down to the manager, that some how translates into us thinking that we have been great and had a successful!season.
I am one of the more positive posters, granted. I do tend to stick up for the manager when he is constantly lambasted for our supposed under acheivement. But let me set the record straight. I do not think 4 the is a successful season. And frankly, I couldn't give a rats arse where Liverpool finish.
I just happen to think that all our troubles are not caused by this manager, or the last for that matter. Those who keep blaming everything on one person, LvG, are doing nothing if not accepting poor performances from several handsomely paid professionas.
I know some will argue that they are human, despite their wage packets, and that the manager is ultimately responsible.
But this idea that we have a hugely talented squad is, in my opinion, misguided.
If we are to genuinely return to the summit of domestic and European football, out best XI contains maybe 6 payers who are genuinely good enough.
DDG, Herrera, Mata, Rooney and Carrick are a given. DiMaria should be on that list, but has so far looked a £6million player rather than a £60m player. The same goes for Falcao.
RvP looks a shadow of the player he was.
Shaw will be a good player for us in the long term, but has had an inconsistent and injury plagued season.
Blind, Smalling, Young, Rojo and Fellaini will never be any more than squad players in genuinely top team, and even then that is being generous.
The rest I am afraid are simply not good enough. Especially the defence.
Any successful team is built on the string foundation of a solid back 4, or 5. We will not be able to properly judge this team until we have that. And I am sorry, but a defence that includes Rafael, Jones, Valencia or Evans will never be a solid one.
Maybe all those whom feel that our manager is not good enough should judge their over paid hero's by the same standards.
Until we have a squad of genuinely top players, we will not have a top team.
20 May 2015 21:51:46
I disagree Betty. I think we have one of the best squads in the league. If I was to create a PL 11 we wouldn't be short of players in that side. The problem with the manager is he is constantly making comments and then back tracking and has been all season.
We have been dull to watch this year and let's be honest we are lucky that Luis Suarez left Liverpool. As far as celebrating 4th place goes there are folk who have done and it's embarrassing really. At the start of the season most folk on here had us winning the league and now they are just happy to scrape 4th spot.
I hope we come good, I think we are capable of great things next year (as we were this year) but I just don't think we are going to be the success we can be under this manager. As you say people have different opinions and I'm happy to be proved wrong!
{Ed025's Note - can you name me one who would get in that PL11 jmb?..because im struggling mate..
20 May 2015 22:17:53
betty
only chelsea are strong through out the first 11 , as long costa is fit .
rvp falcao rooney mata carrick di maria are all top players .
smalling has been one of the best cb in the league since xmas , i think shaw is the best lb in the league to be honest .
i agree you can't just blame the manager (unless his name is moyes ) although if some of the players who have underperformed had played to there potential and we had played some really good stuff he would of got all the credit.
also just because some people think the squad is capable of more doesn't make them doom and gloom.
i try to evaluate the performance of the team from the football we have produced and the standard of our play , instead of league postion .
i think league position says and depends to much about the teams around you.
we could end up 5th and play to the hight of our potential next season if there are 4 better teams in the league.
for me that would be better than 4th and playing imo beneath our potential
the problem is everyone seems to have an agenda , god forbid you want to talk football and give an honest opinion .
we all have pet hates and the double standards people have on moyes and lvg or rooney and any other player drives me round the bend .
but the sites for everyone and whos to say what's wrong or right , it you don't like a post ignore it.
{Ed025's Note - well said jred..fine post mate..
20 May 2015 22:25:46
Agree with the main points of your post, but I feel like it's a bit harsh to pass that sort of judgement on the likes of Young, who has just had a stellar season, Rojo who hasn't played too many games for us yet and his in his first season, and Fellaini who is unorthodox but at times unplayable. I feel like because of a perceived 'long ball' style of play when Fellaini is on the pitch, people tend to view him as central to a footballing digression, which is why so many people label him as an option and not a vital component. I think this is unfair, and just like Fellaini has been one of our most important players this season, he will be important in the next.
20 May 2015 22:39:30
Couldn't agree more Betty.
20 May 2015 22:49:05
ruud
thats a good point i wonder what people would of said if our 60 mill signing di maria had played as well as young this season.
i think young has been one of the best wide men in the league this season.
ed 25
the best 11 would be 10 from chelsea and aguero .
the best 11 with out chelsea and i think united would get a few in there.
{Ed025's Note - i cant argue with the first bit jred, but a few may be stretching it a bit mate..
20 May 2015 22:57:40
nomid
so it wasn't all moyes fault last season ?
20 May 2015 23:17:48
ed
it would depend if you went with form or reputation, a number of uniteds players have imo underperformed.
take chelsea away and i think you can make a case for ddg , smalling ,carrick herrera and young .maybe not a 100% pick but who would be, augero
sanchez can't think of that many more .
but rvp, mata , falcao ,rooney , di maria and shaw are imo all top players who if playing well would be there or there about . all have underperformed for various reasons .
so i think its potentially a good squad just like city and arsenal
{Ed001's Note - wouldn't De Gea get in anyway? He has been the best goalkeeper in the Prem for me. Not sure how anyone could make a case for Smalling, sorry, I keep hearing he has improved, but he still looks a very poor defender being protected well in his 'good' games. Now Carrick, on the other hand, is an extremely underrated player and provided Smalling with great cover when he played. If he had been fit all season, United would not have struggled as much as they did. Herrera is excellent, I have always liked him as a player, more hustle and bustle than flicks and tricks, which goes against him when people are talking about best players. They will always pick a Silva or Cazorla over a Herrera, because they look better in highlights. Young has played well, but there is no way you could pick him over David Silva or Christian Eriksen, even Nacer Chadli has created and scored enough to make him a good option.}
21 May 2015 07:03:30
Jred so are excluding him from any blame?
20 May 2015 23:10:42
Ed I think DDG, Herrera and Carrick would get into a PL 11. If certain players could play to their ability mkre often and get used the right way then Mata, Di Maria and Rooney wouldn't be far behind.
If we are talking about this season, Felliani has been a monster and is feared by most of the league, Young has been a breathe of fresh air and Smalling has shown he is cap of big things.
Jred - I agree with mostly every single thing you have posted mate.
{Ed025's Note - DDG would get in that second team jmb certainly, the others would struggle imo even though im a big carrick fan mate..
21 May 2015 08:14:44
chris
no ,moyes was part of the issue last year but there was a number reasons why we struggled last year.
21 May 2015 08:15:09
Which centre mids other than fabregas and matic have been better than carrick this season, I can't think of many, so definitely a case carrick would get in.
Getting a bit bored of opposition fans slagging off Smalling when they clearly haven't seen enough of him, the United fans like him for a reason, we aren't scared to say when somebody has been poor, and 95% of united fans think Smalling looks like he could be fantastic and has been playing very well, I have liverpool fan mates who slag him off all the time and they just can't have seen him play enough / are judging him based on the odd poor performance / poor pass he makes.
{Ed001's Note - I watch every single game in the Prem now, I am not slagging him off, he has just been poor. You can give all the crap you like about it being opposition fans, but he is not just having the odd poor performance, it is most of them without the protection of Carrick. He has improved, but he is still inconsistent beyond belief simply because he lacks the defensive positional sense to cope on a regular basis. He relies far too much on pace. I do feel he has suffered due to being played at right back and because of injuries, but I can't see him ever being good enough as he will get injured every time he does start to settle in to the team.}
21 May 2015 08:24:52
i think silva is a fantastic player but i'm not sure he has been amazing this year.
agureo and sanchez to and extent stand would get straight in but the rest would be debatable imo.
however on paper i think it would be a different story which shows how many of the big names have underperformed
21 May 2015 08:52:23
But why have they underperfomered Jred? Why haven't we had a settled team all season (I'm sure to hear injuries excuse again)? Why hasn't a young potential star like Junuzaj had a chance to build on last seasons performances? When you ask the question why it comes back to the managers decisions.
Sometimes you just get an incline of when a manager isn't right for a club. I don't think we will be a success under LVG and that's my opinion and I have seen nothing to change it so far.
21 May 2015 09:11:04
mata
its hard to say from the outside although i think di maria and shaw have been handled badly .
there will probably be a number of reasons but the manager always tends to get the blame , you don't often see a player getting sacked.
but that's what comes with being a manager if the players where all playing out there skins he would be a genius .
its actually what i think was fergys biggest strength , he the best out of his team a bit like jose.
moyes got slated for taking over a title winning team but for me (as i argued at the time) that team was finished.
we have spent 250 mill since fergy left and probably need to spend another 250 which tells it own story.
i actually think on paper we have a much better squad now than we did under moyes maybe even than under fergy in the last year.
21 May 2015 09:16:13
ed
yer ddg would get straight in.
i think smalling has played quite well since just after xmas he is showing signs he is finally starting to learn how to play football.
but how many really good cb are there in the EPL the 34 year old terry has been the best by a distance for me
{Ed001's Note - and Koscielny has been good too, for me it would be him and Terry. Though I do take your point, there are not many that have stood out in a very poor league this season. Maybe the Southampton pair would have a good case to make the team as well? Fonte and Alderweireld have been excellent when able to be paired together. Other than that, you are really clutching at straws. I like Sakho for Liverpool, but he hasn't played enough to be even in consideration, and the rest of the defence are simply not good enough to be in there. Looking around the league, it is difficult to even come up with an argument for anyone else at all, the defences this season have, by and large, been truly abysmal.}
21 May 2015 09:22:42
But if adnan had been given chances u would be lamenting the fact that Mata is not playing etc jmb u can only fit 11 in a starting line up.
21 May 2015 09:29:34
We have lots of players who , on paper , should be good enough. But the game is not played on paper. It is interesting that some of the people who are most critical of the manager are the same ones who most overstate how good our players are.
Its not all about "names" , its about having players who are genuinely good enough consistently , and who can stay fit long enough to make a real contribution throughout a season.
I think we mostly accept that DDG , Mata , Herrera , Carrick , Rooney , Shaw(when fit) and an on form DiMaria are good enough. That is 7 players.
If you add any 4 of Valencia , Jones , Evans , Rojo , Smalling , Young , Fellini etc , you have what we have seen this season. Not quite good enough.
If you replace those 4 with a quality RB , 2 top Central Defenders and another quality midfielder then we start to look like a proper team.
his is nothing new. We all know where we need to strengthen. But we need to accept that too many "starters" are not good enough. Some , like Young and Fellaini have had decent seasons and have earned a place in the squad , but we need better quality than that if we are to really challenge at the top.
I know it is a squad game , and in realty it is not all quite as straight forwards as what I have written above. But if we try to justify players as being good enough when they clearly aren't , then we really have lowered our standards to a level where we must accept that we are no longer going to challenge for the top honours in the game.
21 May 2015 09:36:27
ed
yer koscienly is a good player.
as a unit the southampton back 4 have played well in fact with forster ,schneiderlin and wanyama they are defensively very good.
how can english football be struggling for cbs, i thought it was the one thing we where good at
{Ed001's Note - lack of decent coaches, there are so few coaches in English football.}
21 May 2015 09:57:20
betty
very few teams have 11 amazing players .
i don't think chelsea have infact i'm not sure any team have .
look at the difference 1 player can make suarez for liverpool , bale for spurs hazard chelsea.
the 7 players you mentioned plus some inform " squad players " and for me its a strong squad. i would also maybe add rvp as well.
just for argument sake ,if we don't try to justify players being in the team that we don't think are really good enough , should we not do the same with the manager.
i think lvg is a good manager i don't think he is a great one.
i think young is a good player i don't think he is a great one
{Ed001's Note - just remember when United were winning trophies with the likes of O'Shea in the team. I doubt Ferguson ever had more than 7 players in his team that he would have considered good enough on this basis.}
21 May 2015 10:03:09
Dont worry guys if we win the league next year it will have been because we did something JMB said we needed to do. Leave it to the expert.
21 May 2015 10:28:53
Jred , you that is a fair point. Like I said at the end of that post , its not quite that straight forwards in reality.
But I do still maintain that we have too many players that are not good enough. Cleverley and Welbeck (don't want to wind Beast up!!) were I the same bracket and were moved on. I just think there are another half dozen who need to be moved on too.
For me , the most important area to strengthen is the defence. I think a solid back 4 would allow the players in front of them to really express themselves. At the moment , I don't think the manager or the other players have total confidence in the defence. All to often we look restricted and hesitant in our play.
I know that is also down to the managers tactics. I just think with a solid defence , we cold be cut free from that leash and be a bit more positive going forwards.
21 May 2015 10:40:48
betty
we need a cb imo although we bought rojo for that role and a rb.
next season will tell us a lot .
personally i'm not really reading to much into us finishing 4th for various reason.(i think I've done them to death)
i hope will really kick on next season but i'm not overly confidant to be honest.
but fingers crossed
21 May 2015 10:42:33
The worry is that our best players this season are the ones we want to relegate to fringe players next season. Young, Fellaini or Valencia have been outfield man of the match between them almost every game this season.
Maybe we should buy 6-8 players of their calibre for the other positions as LVG clearly has an ability to lift average players to very good, and lower very good players to average?
I know this sounds stupid, but some managers can specialise with certain types of players and we should maybe buy to LVG's strengths rather than media hype or those that get the fans excited?
21 May 2015 11:55:15
Beast,
You know we don't but the players don't you? LVG will buy the players he thinks suit his strengths surely.