07 May 2015 08:14:17
I don't get the Pele or Maradona thing Ed. The trouble is they played at a time when the standard was far inferior to what it is now, especially Pele.
If you put the current England team (as bad as they are), against the England of 1966, the current one would win by double figures. The game has advanced, science, physicality etc, Players like Pele and Maradona had the natural gift of course, but with the aid of sport science, higher standards of competition it's a different game. The fact that both Ronaldo & Messi make current players look like rank amateurs who drank a few pints before a game, shows me they are in a different league. Pele was like and adult against children, Messi & Ronaldo look like they are superhuman against adults.
It's the same with boxers, athletes etc. World records getting broken left right and centre because of the advancements in sport and the sheer effort that is needed to reach the top with so many people competing.
Pele was the best in his generation, but he probably wouldn't get a game in a PL team if he had a time machine. Maybe if he transported as a child and his raw ability could be harnessed, but a 25 year old Pele wouldn't get a game for Hull nowadays imo.
{Ed025's Note - i dont know how old you are beast, but im suspecting fairly young as i hear that a lot from people, the fact is we will never know mate. its a myth that the likes of pele and maradona were not fit, and if they were playing now they certainly would be. boxing experts think ali is the best boxer that ever lived, and myself im certain that mayweather should never be mentioned in the same breath as hagler, hearns, leonard or duran!, and as good as tiger woods is he will never be as good as nicklaus even with the superior equipment they have today..well thats my view..
07 May 2015 09:20:46
Pele wouldn't get a game for Hull!!
Now that is some statement Beast. I sort of get where you are coming from in general , but everything is not "better" now because players are faster and stronger.
If English teams and players , in particular , spent a bit more time on skill and technique rather than just athleticism we would be in a lot better place now in footballing terms.
Pele had a "gift" , and became an athlete to go with it. These days , its the other way around. We take athletes and try to turn tem into footballers.
Its not exclusive to this country of course , but you get my point.
I think its a lame argument to discredit sportsmen from a bygone era on grounds of sports science alone.
I think Ed my have hit the nail on the head when he suggested it might be an age thing!
Now who would you rather have Beast. Nakica Jelovic or Pele? I know what my answer would be.
All hypothetical of course. We will never know )
07 May 2015 09:59:27
If pele had the same training and developments we have today he would be up there with the best
07 May 2015 09:46:48
Just have to look at some of the tackles that Pele and Maradona had to receive and not including the ones they evaded. Messi would not have lasted 5 minutes. I also have my opinion on the medical help Messi has received. And those 4 boxers in that generation ed. can't see it being repeated. I could picture Mayweather amongst those 4 but probably hanging from Haglers mouth.
{Ed025's Note - what a division that was supasub!, the younger generation think footy and boxing was only invented 10 years ago mate.. :)
07 May 2015 09:50:09
Just to add to the boxers. I'm not sure who could have beaten Tyson in his prime before his trainer died. Devastating. Anyone on the receiving end of those hooks would even make me wince watching it.
{Ed025's Note - he was a monster supasub, awesome fighter, and like suarez did like a little taste of an opponent at times.. :)
07 May 2015 10:12:37
I don't know Beast I feel this is a very naive view. I've had the privilege to play against some former professionals as I've played a very high standard of football from the age of 16, most notably was Chris Waddle. Not exactly a world beater but at the age of 50, no one could get near him in the middle of the park. The only thing that's changed massively over the years for me is fitness, pace and some technique. the natural gift you mentioned previously only comes around once in a generation and to say Pele wouldn't get into a premier league club is one of the stupidest things i've ever heard.
07 May 2015 10:22:07
I have to say that I agree with the Beast to an extent. I think if you put Pele and Maradona at their peak against Messi and CR7 it would be very one sided. Not because of sheer abulity but simply because of the advancements in the sport have changed beyond belief.
It's like saying your old Nokia 3310 has the same capabilities as your iPhone or that an atomic bomb is just as devastating as a nuclear bomb. Both in theory are the same type of device but one has outgrown it's prior generation. Each of these things may have been a class above in their era but things change and things advance in all industries, be that materialistic items, technological equipment or humanoid traits.
In a few decades there will be new 'super players' who will surpass the feats of Messi and Ronaldo as well. Times change and the world changes with it. It's pretty academic really, it's just science.
07 May 2015 10:22:58
Ed & Betty - I don't think its anything to do with age, even if you were old enough to watch Pele in the flesh you won't be able to directly compare what you saw then to what you see now in my view. Memories are deceiving a lot of the time, it's ridiculously hard to weigh up all the evidence with such spans of time and the difference in overall standards.
I am not for one second demeaning what Pele achieved and how good he was compared to others of his generation. I am simply saying that the criteria of what makes somebody good and excellent has increased as time advances - it's an evolution/technology/scientific/competition thing surely.
It's all to do with our own perspective, but if you ask the question who is the best footballer that ever lived? And have no "for their time" attached to it, then Messi would run rings around Pele. It's not Pele's fault and arguably he would be better than Messi if he was born in 1990 and had the same opportunities, but he wasn't and that is why we are cleverer than cavemen (on the whole anyway)!
I'm in my mid-30's by the way. As you both say we will never really know for sure - but its good to debate and speculate. Betty - I would pick Jelavic. Seriously, I'd have Alex Bruce over Bobby Moore as well, which sounds ridiculous but I think the advancements in the game have been that great, competition and money has made it so. That's not to say watching football is any more enjoyable now of course. It was probably more entertaining watching boxing in the old days than it is today as well.
07 May 2015 10:25:41
Ronaldo hangers on on this page.
Fans should relinquish washing messi. He is the greatest to ever play the game. And there is no debate between ronaldo and messi. Messi in the biggest games uses his maximum ability and scores such incredible goals. Ronaldo is a potent goalscorer. Messi is just superior above and beyond. Genious
07 May 2015 10:27:15
Just want to add that it's a good point about the game changing you made below Ed25. Players of today wouldn't stand a chance in the 60's or 70's when it comes to the rules of the game and physical aspects. Maybe Pele or Maradona would have been even better had they not been allowed to be chopped down and roughed up so much, maybe they would have flourished in this non-contact sport we are moving towards.
I know Messi and Ronaldo wouldn't last 5 minutes if they went back in time to when men were men and football was a real mans game, so all things being equal its just too hard to compare.
{Ed025's Note - it is beast, unfortunately we will never know the answer mate, unless we can get that delorean from back to the future up and running.. :)
07 May 2015 10:42:59
Beast , so an we safely assume then that LvG is a better manager than Sir Alex?
You are right , memories can be deceiving. So can over simplifying an argument :)
Alex Bruce over Bobby Moore? I've heard it all now.
I suppose you would prefer Ashley Young over George Best too?
{Ed025's Note - the young also think they invented sex betty.. :)
07 May 2015 10:43:22
In the then Era of football hmmmm, tackling from behind is just one of the many things that has changed. Beast i think you should reconsider your stand. Messi and CR7 wouldn't be able to get on the ball back then! Kicks and elbows flying left and right.
{Ed025's Note - and that was just the warm up mdb!.. :)
07 May 2015 11:10:28
I suppose its like comparing apples and oranges.
Betty - LVG would be shocking if he was managing Newton Heath mate.
{Ed025's Note - i dont think hes that great managing the current squad to be honest beast.. :)
07 May 2015 11:22:40
Showing your studs used to be an art form.
{Ed025's Note - ahhh..the good old days..
07 May 2015 14:06:39
I think JMB and Beast might be the same person!!!!!