12 Feb 2015 18:14:33
"I think it's a strange way to judge a manager solely on league position .
Surely there are wider issues
Quality of the squad
Progress of the team
How other teams around you have performed.
To name but a few
jred"
Jred, further down the page you made this comment, on the whole I agree. There will be many different criteria the owners will have give LvG when they hired him and he should be judge on how he has managed in all those criteria.
One thing you said which personally I think is rather silly and certainly reckless is he should be judged on how other teams around us have performed.
What?????
I'm a manager of a Barber shop, should I be judged on how our rival Barber shops have performed. Or would that be unfair?
All I can do is worry about my ship, how I've managed. I am not responsible for the shops I don't manage.
Like wise LvG can't be held responsible for how the other clubs have performed, all he can do is achieve his aims. If that is manage a turn over of playing staff, reunite the dressing room, rebuild the players confidence and achieve a top four finish and he manages all of that then there is no grounds to fire him. If the owners said he had to do it playing a certain style of football then that needs to be taken into consideration. But I highly doubt that was part of his remit.
Everyone has their own criteria Shappy. We don't own the club, we support the club. For me a Man Utd manager shouldn't be in his position if he fails to make proper use of the tools he has been given for a prolonged period, couple that with a failure to learn from any previous mistakes and I have a problem.
He is not doing a good job at management, he is bouncing around being indecisive and relying far too much on luck over judgement in my view.
Other people can ignore the performance aspect and simply look at results - fair enough, it's their perogative. However that doesn't appeal to me. Performance comes first, seeing signs of progress are crucial.
Secondly - Most of the comparisons with the likes of how our rivals are performing this year compared to last year is simply to highlight that Moyes was not as bad as has been made out and LVG is not as good. That's all.
P.S - If 5 barber shops are doing better than you, yet you have invested more than them, surely you have to wonder why? If your hair cuts are getting worse, it won't be long before the not so loyal customers start going elsewhere - that will impact on the bottom line. Even the loyal customers may start asking why the service is going downhill, could they be taken for granted by any chance?!
12 Feb 2015 18:58:08
I tend to think too much emphasis is put on the performance of other teams and my personal fave 'the league is so poor this year'. If you believed that every time you read it the EPL must get worse year on year! I do see the logic in evaluating other teams compared with us but I tend to fall into the 'you can only beat what's in front of you' camp.
Shaps
if you read my post again i think you will see i said / meant the exact opposite.
as i said in the below post that would be a strange way to judge a manager.
It was in reply to ozwald post that "the only way to judge a manager is on league position"
But this is very dependent on how other teams perform .
i think there Is far more to be taken in to account as i have tried to explain below.
In the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king. He still doesn't see very well though.
We may finish 4th and stink, but there are teams that stink more than we do. Finishing 4th means we get into the CL and secure much needed revenue but t doesn't mean LVG has done a great job and everything is rosy.
Not on a downer, just pointing out that despite being 3rd, we have on the whole been pants
If koeman finishes 4th i think he will of done a better job than if lvg finished 4th .
4th place playing average not getting the best out of a team would not be as good a performance from the manager as 5th place playing good football and getting the best out of team.
i don't think it is as clear and simple as 4th place good 5th place bad .
Imagine if you owned a barbershop and the manager had your highest paid stylist sweeping the floor and washing hair, and your only specialised colourist wasn't being given any shifts because his colours were too vibrant. And all the while your illustrious manager keeps giving his nephew the most important clients despite the fact he only occasionally bothers showing up.
Beast so would you be happy playing amazing football, fast attacking but not getting results and finishing mid table every season?
the fact is lvg is getting results. 1 loss in since November is not luck.
12 Feb 2015 23:17:00
This debate is going to rumble on forever.
Mourinho - well it could be argued that he got sacked by Abramovic for not playing attractive enough football. His Milan team was functional, at best, if you think about. Did Chelsea play 'that' well last season - not really. Functional. But this season he's flavour of the year thanks to some shrewd signings.
Let's see what LvG does next year before we judge him, see who he brings in. Who cares what money we spend? It's not my money. For Pete's sake (who is this Pete?) we Utd fans crave stability, but because of past success we lack the patience to start again. How do you follow the best manager, arguably, in history?
Football in England and Italy has been so up and down the last few years. Athletico and Dortmund have also shown that no elite teams are invincible anymore. Look at Barca since Guardiola has left. Where did AC Milan finish last year?
The premier league is so strong. Burnley would give Barca, Bayern, Juve a good game. Look what happens when a pumped up Celtic play those kind of teams.
Rambling. But I just think enjoy the ride, See how things go. Be passionate, but be realistic. Think about Utd fans in the 70's and 80's. My Nan died the month before Ronaldo's debut. She missed that and another Champs League win. You just don't know what you'll watch in your window of time as a football fan.
Enjoy it. Don't be spoilt or entitled and support your team.
LvG and this current team is just a chapter in a long history. And while I mourn the loss of a Keane tackle, Scholes picks it up. Finds Giggs. Plays it forward to Cole. Good control. Back out wide to Beckham who's put a magnificent ball into the near post to Yorke. And it's 1-0 Utd.
We'll once again find a team like that. Not next year. Maybe not the year after. Maybe not even a LvG team. Maybe even after Rooney retires. But it will come again. We're to rich and too big to fall off forever.
12 Feb 2015 23:48:09
Very good post firebear.
Good post Firebear, I'm sure we are all in it for the long haul, but it doesn't mean we can't bitch about it when stupid mistakes keep happening. I agree that we should just enjoy it, but some people who are passionate about things have to voice their concerns (that doesn't mean people who don't voice anything aren't passionate of course).
Different people make the world go round, but I personally can't wait until I have finished with this Chapter of Man Utd Life - the plot is going nowhere fast.
Spb - missed your post sorry. I have actually answered the same point several times this season. But Yes I would rather we played better football, I watch to enjoy not to crow.
However if we play amazing football with the players we have then it goes without saying we will win things again. It's a question of having the correct manager and the correct balance, at the moment we are far too negative and the manager is far too stubborn.
Cant believe I read on this page Beast saying he was a supporter. you haven't supported anything on any of your posts that i've seen, and there has been many. too many glass half empty wooden spoon merchants looking for half empty glasses that fuel the media's agenda to paint a bad light on mufc
What are you talking about Rzomcr? Why would I come on here if I didn't support the team, I don't like or rate the manager but I will always support the team.
There is a big difference you know, LVG is not Man Utd - although he may think he is!
To maraud your overpowering off centre views. You have for some reason made LVG your nemesis despite him doing exactlt what he was brought in for (so far). The fact remains, the start of the season was used (as LVG clearly openly stated) to see every single potential player play to make decisions about the squad going forward. With that in mind if we was playing then like we are now it would be very likely we would be top of the league. The fact you chose Moyes over LVG above sealed it for me, Moyes didn't have a clue what he was doing yet LVG has come in with complete clarity of what he wants and how he plans to move forward. I have said on previous posts he has highlighted the weakness at the back and has moulded the team into a more overall defensive unit to protect them. Unfortunately this comes with its side effects ie not playing sweeping beautiful football, however the aim is to maintain a steady run of results with the squad we have until replacements can be brought in to strengthen the back which will in turn allow attacking players the freedom they need to play the football you so desire. The players know their jobs they go out and execute it and pick up the desired points, whereas under moyes the players looked lost, different 11 every game and no end result (most importantly). people seem to be under the impression that LVG has handpicked this squad, when the fact is a couple of players were already in the pipeline and di maria and falcao were too good to turn down when mr mendes dropped them at the checkout. When Di Maria, Falcao, Shaw and Hererra were all injured LVG had the same squad as Moyes at his disposal (less vidic, evra, ferdinand, giggs) and still maintained the desired results. I think you should re-think your anti LVG agenda forget about your conspiracies and stick to the facts. You can't have your cake and eat it all of the time. You say LVG is stubborn and has an ego??? is there a man out there more stubborn than the legend that is SAF??? LVG is open and honest every single press interview and I for one think his character is exactly what fits this club, he has control and that in itself is a very powerful thing.