22 Jan 2015 09:40:46
This post is really aimed at Jred.
The conversation was getting too far down the page to be kept going so I thought I would start it up again.
My argument yesterday was that we don't have the players to play a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 right now.
Firstly, we don't have two centre backs that are good enough and reliable enough for Van Gaal. He is playing 3 centre backs because it gives him strength in numbers rather than strength in quality.
We also do not have any wider players apart from Di Maria who are of sufficient quality. Valencia and Young are not good enough to start every game and are not good enough to play in a 4-4-2. Similarly, Januzaj is having form issues for whatever reason.
Most of our strength comes in the forward line but even then there is little width, most of them are central players: van Persie, Rooney, Falcao, Mata etc.
The squad is currently very unbalanced and needs three signings to make it a more even squad: a quality centre half, a box to box midfielder and a right midfielder that has quality and pace.
Do you agree Jred?
Just a general point. Even if we believe that LVG is playing 3 at the back because he has to, why aren't the other 15-18 teams beneath us doing the same?
Smalling, Jones, Evans, Rojo all play for their national sides above numerous other CB's that form part of a 2 CB system in the prem. Also our attackers would on paper grace almost any football team, so surely the most logical option would be to trust the attack to demolish opposition, especially as our defenders are actually not as bad as everyone is making out. Yes they are clumsy at times, but they are not as bad as half the pairings in the Prem - all 4 of them would start for most other teams if signed.
For those of you using Leicester as the reason, he was playing 3 at the back before that game. One freak second half collapse shouldn't define a whole season. Did Chelsea change everything after the same happened at Spurs?
Saying we don't have the players Is just a lame excuse. We don't have wing backs either, yet Shaw is being sacrificed to do that, wouldn't Shaw as a full back be better protection as well?
I don't think anybody could put their life on knowing what his plan is, because I don't think LVG even knows yet. He is playing not to get beat because he was set a target of CL football, if the board had targeted winning the league I imagine he would aim to win games not simply avoid defeat and hope for a moment of magic as he is doing currently. Who knows though, but wasn't Blind signed to provide protection as well?!
You raise good points Beast.
I would say that the other teams throughout the League don't ave as much pressure on them to win as we do.
A great deal of the problem has been that the players available haven't been the 4 main centre backs. It has often been McNair and Blackett plus one other. Now, McNair and Blackett would definitely not walk into most EPL sides so they have needed a third, experienced head, even if has been Carrick.
I find the argument that van Gaal is playing 5 at the back because we don't have players to play more attacking systems to be naive and misleading. Our goals conceded per game this season differs very little between 4 and 5 at the back. What the stats do show is that we score far more goals with 4 at the back, create way more chances and have a better points per game ratio. In other words, 5 at the back gives us a marginally more stable defence at the cost of significantly blunting our attack. So if the argument is for balance, 5 at the back is unbalancing our team by severely limiting our attacking capabilities.
A lot of this argument stems back to the Leicester game. But this game is an anomaly: conceding two penalties, having to sub a cb early, and a young inexperienced cb having a stinker. In addition, the stats show that there still isn';t a huge difference in goals conceded despite shipping 5 at Leicester. Our defenders are not world class, but they are not so bad that they aren't able to cope with the likes of Stoke and QPR. The same for our midfield: the diamond formation doesn't require wingers and we have more than enough quality (Herrera, Di Maria, Mata, Fellaini, Carrick, Blind, Rooney) to play this way every week. In short, we have players to play 4-4-2. In fact, considering that our defence is the weakest area of our squad we are, in effective, sacrificing our better players so that a weaker defender can play.
The truth is that van Gaal is playing with 5 at the back because he thinks it can work. Regardless of injuries, it has been, by and large, his go to formation. This leaves us with two big problems. First, the formation isn't working, it isn't balanced or getting the best out of our best players. The second, bigger, problem is that if van Gaal sticks to this formation he will start looking to bring in players who fit it. The problem with this is that van Gaal isn't likely to be here more than a few seasons and very few other managers like this style of play. Therefore, the club is risking spending hundreds of millions on a system that, in all likelihood, will be scrapped a few years down the line.
They aren't doing it, and maybe that's why they're beneath us huh Beast? It works both ways.
I partly agree with Fresh, and also even if we were to convert to a back four, we do not have a consistent pairing. that is essential. Most of the other teams back lines are consistent.
What makes you think he is set up not to get beat? Do you believe his team talk consists of 'go out there and just don't lose?'
The board would have set the target before the season kicked on, and if he planned on setting up to not get beat, why would he purchase players like Di Maria & Falcao? Its clear to see the team is in a rebuilding phase, the defence is yet to be worked on - you can say oh he should have bought CBs then, but obviously attempts were made, you don't step into the market just to buy anybody.
He was also probably told by existing staff and SAF about the defenders currently at the club, and we know SAF rates Jones, Evans and Smalling very highly. plus he had all right to see how they would play under him. If you don't have patience then that's unfortunate, sadly things don't change overnight.
Yes the injuries have been a massive factor Fresh, but when fit he still doesn't play 2 CB's, so I don't think it counts, also these players are used to playing in a 4 at the back system, so if he thinks they aren't good, why make them worse by having them try and learn a brand new system? Surely the cover of 3 at the back is negated by the fact all 3 of them have no experience in that system (nor wing backs) - what do you think?
I also think our defenders are under less pressure than 90% of teams in the league. We do invite more pressure by playing 3 at the back, as we can't retain the ball further upfront (less options) and most teams wouldn't dare commit men forward if we deployed our attackers properly as they would be too focussed on keeping the score down.
I think he makes the defence weaker as they don't know how to play 3 at the back and invites pressure on - also on the counter we look suspect positionaly which is when most teams attack us now. His obvious lack of trust in the defenders can't be good for their confidence either which would also explain more mistakes being made.
Don't get me wrong the players should be doing better, but lack of faith from management, lack of experience and negative tactics apply more pressure to players who are least equipped to handle it in my view.
I think I am going to take my coaching badges and get in there myself to sort this mess out haha!
The 5 at the back is clearly working as only Chelsea (19) and Southampton (16) have conceded fewer goals than ourselves. We even have a more solid defense than City. If you discount the Leicester game then it is the most solid defense in the League despite the personnel that are making it up.
But yes, we have scored the least amount of goals in the top 5 which is surprising for a team such as our selves with the fire power up front that we have. On the other hand, we do have very good possession statistics.
Ay3 makes a very good point that you need a solid pairing to a play a 4-4-2. We used to have that with Rio and Vidic, Chelsea now have it with Cahill and Terry which is part of the reason that they are top of the League.
I can only assume that he is waiting for it to all click, and he needs better ball playing centre backs than Smalling and McNair to make it work as these guys do see a lot of the ball. It if was me I would be tempted to play the 3 at the back with Carrick inbetween say Rojo and Otamendi if that is the way we are looking to go - Javi Martinez did this at Bayern for a spell. Then we could have the likes of Herrera and Mata in the middle, I would be tempted to play Rooney up top with Falcao and Di Maria behind as he really does influence a game from the central positions. This could be the way that LVG is looking to proceed.
Beast it's not just the quality of our CB's that is the problem. Beyond Shaw and Rafael we have no real natural full backs. Sure Rojo can play there but CB is his best position same as Smalling and Jones, Blind can play there but is best used in midfield especially early in the season when Carrick was out injured. So that leaves playing Young and Valencia as full backs, neither are natural defenders.
So due to the injuries to our two natural full backs we have had to bring in a system to bring more balance to the team.
Also we still don't have a midfielder capable of shielding the defence ala Keane Makelele or Viera.
So you would want to play a system that had two average CB's no real midfield cover and two wingers as full backs.
That is suicide, you can't go into any game in a top league with only two natural defenders on the pitch.
That is why LvG keeps saying he needs to find a balance with his selection.
With not enough wide defenders he has to play attacking players in defensive position out wide, that means we are likely to lose ground out wide meaning it is likely we will concede more crosses into the box. So having an extra defensive body in there makes it less likely that any cross coming into our box will find an un marked attacker.
LvG likes possession football, keep the ball, pass and move, stretch and tire your opponents and find the openings to punish them. That is his PHILOSOPHY. Just in case anyone is unsure.
He is trying to implement it atm, but injuries and players not best suited to that style are causing him problems in getting the best out of the players.
The system and the philosophy are different things altogether. The philosophy is how you want your team to play. e.g. attacking, defensive, counter attacking or possession.
The system is about using the players you have to get the best out of what is available. A system starts off with a shape or formation if you will, each formation will work in different ways.
You can play possession or counter attacking football or any style/philosophy of football with any formation you want.
Tactics are the direct instructions for each game depending on your opponent. For example you may set up in a 433 type formation and you may want to play a possession based style of play. But how are you going to actually open up your opposition and create chances? The tactics you discuss with your team will be how you get at your opponents, such as their RB is weak so push down our left exposing their weak position, or maybe a goalkeeper is weak at coming for crosses so you will want to test him with corners and free kicks, or maybe the team you are playing against like to play the off side trap so you play a quick forward who can spring the offside trap. These are you tactics which will change depending on the opponent.
So your problem with LvG seems to stem from your own limited knowledge of what he is doing and what he is trying to achieve.
You complain about his philosophy and point to the system he is playing, you consider his formation to be bad tactics. And yet you don't know how they all differ from each other.
So as a round of to your question it isn't just down to the poor quality of our CB's but also a lack of depth at full back and no defensive shield in front of our defence that has led LvG to playing three at the back, thus to bring a defensive balance to the team. Considering that we have the third best defensive record in the league and had we not collapsed against Leicester then we would have the best defensive record might point to the fact that LvG might have a clue as to what he's doing.
22 Jan 2015 11:58:30
Liverpool played Chelsea off the park the other night playing 3 at the back
Ken three at the back can be a great option if used with the right tactics, players and philosophy.
Liverpool played a high pressing game against Chelsea, with a front three of sorts, with Gerrard and Coutinho playing wide but slightly deeper allowing Markovic and Moreno to overlap. meaning when attacking there 343 looked more like 3241 which meant that Chelsea could only really play a ball over the top to relieve pressure and with three CB's that meant Costa was always going to lose out in that battle. Meaning the ball came straight back at them.
Liverpools 3 at the back is a high line pressure style.
LvG likes controlled possession football, he likes to keep the ball in the midfield area rather than high up the pitch as that opens up more space and space is the key to a possession based style. But by keeping the ball in midfield while playing three at the back has meant team have pushed up against us as none of our strikers are quick so there is no threat in behind. With them pushing up it has limited the space and forced our CB's to be the main passers of the team, this is obviously something they aren't great with.
It is that lack of pace up front which has led LvG to play Wilson ahead of Falcao and Di Maria as a striker, to add more pace to our front line and stop teams pushing up against us, giving the midfielders more space and putting less pressure on our defenders which will allow us to control the game more.
He who controls the game controls the outcome.
If we could bring in someone like Depay or Reus and play a front three with Di Maria one side and Reus/Depay the other of a main striker it would force teams much further back and give us more freedom to play in.
Thanks for not being too patronising Shappy!
Ultimately systems and styles can work dependent on the opposition or the team you have available, whatever they may be. We are going to let LVG spend £250M+ on a massive gamble, what he is doing at the moment is not working for various reasons, but much of it can be solved if LVG shelves his plan until he has the players he needs to perform it. He should wait if we aren't ready.
He is acting like we have a team full of numpties and we don't, he is playing defensively through fear which is self fulfilling.
You don't have to be a tactical genius to realise that this is not working for the players we have. We have never been so boring to watch and we have seen zero progress thus far, but people will still defend him in 12 months time if we are still witness to the travesty we are subjected to week in week out. He needs more time, he needs HIS players, well frankly he manages Man Utd, Man Utd shouldn't have to manage LVG - we are so desperate its scary!
Beast, maybe some of them should consider it too. We have the thrid best defense in the league with all the poor CB's we have, so LVG must be doing something right on that front??
Nomid - Don't get me wrong we are more stable defensively than I thought we would be, but it's costing us everywhere else. There is no balance, all out covering for defence sacrifices too much for me, Personally I am of the view the best form of defence is attack in the main.
The key is adapting to the opposition, maybe 3-5-2 would be best against Chelsea, but it isn't against Hull or QPR for example.
LVG is the manager and he should decide how we play, but I don't think its good management to just do the same thing irrespective of circumstances, especially if that same thing is against everything Utd stands for!
I would be less critical if it was all out attack every week because at least we would be focussing on our strengths, but then people would complain about that just as much as I and others do about all out defence. There has to be a middle ground, at the minute LVG may as well be playing Football Manager, as he has the same formation and does nothing on the side-line every week, I don't call that a good manager, I call it lazy and stubborn!
Beast Lvg isn't wasting money though is he? Name me one player you think he has wasted money on?
Di Maria is world class and can play as a winger or as a midfielder.
Rojo is a solid addition who can also play multiple roles.
Herrera is probably our best true midfielder and as such is certainly not a waste of money.
Shaw has the potential to be one of the best LB's in the world and is English keeping alive the english core to our team.
Blind is a great multifunctional player who can play as a CB, LB, LWB, DM and CM and will give you a solid 6/7 out of 10 performance in any of those positions.
And finally we have Falcao, a player who less than 18 months ago was the best striker on the planet and we go him for 6m initially to see if he can get back to that level again if not then he hasn't been an expensive gamble he would have been if we had bought him out right.
Every single player LvG has brought into our club has been a very good solid player who can play in many positions styles and tactics. LvG is all about players being able to be multifunctional to make it easier to adjust during a game. Anyone he brings in this window or in the summer will be the same. As such you could argue he is the safest man in world football to have sign players for a club as even when he leaves what he will leave behind is a group of talent and multifunctional player who are capable of playing any way the new manager sees fit within reason.
You say he's not getting the best out of our players, so i'm assuming you thought Young, Valencia, Fellaini and Mata all played better last season then?
DDG is also having a blinder of a season, he was good last year but is better this season. In fact only Januzaj is playing worse this season than last season, but then how often do yo hear about young players struggling in their second seasons. Add to that that the current system we play doesn't have a position for Januzaj meaning he is having to play well out of position.
LvG plays possession football everyone knows that, and this season our stats show that he is implementing that style on our team, we are making more passes per game, with a high pass percentage and a higher rate of possession. So he is evolving our team.
So let me get this straight what you are suggesting is LvG doesn't try and improve or change our style of play from last season until he has managed to sign all the players he needs to fully get the team paling how he wants?
That would leave us playing as we did last season? Would you really prefer that over what we are getting this season?
whether you want to admit it or not our team is moving forward, we are developing a new style of play and progressing. Maybe not as quick as some of us would like but it is happening.
Bottom line there is no manager anywhere in world football who could have come into our club and could have brought the club forward through 25 years of progression and football evolution in a few weeks and have us playing amazing winning football by the end of August like you wanted. It was never going to happen.
The amount of work needed was massively underestimated by everyone both inside and outside the club. Sir Alex had built a club that worked they way he did, but no one can step into his shoes and be him. We almost needed rebuilding from the ground up, we needed a new and style more suited to the modern game, we needed to refresh the entire squad. By the time LvG will have finished the rebuild of the squad maybe only 10-15% of the players who played under Sir Alex wil be left at the club. that's 85-90% of the playing staff needed changing, you can't do that over night.
I'm not saying LvG will be the man to win the title back, if we manage a title challenge next season and win it then it will be massively against the odds. As both Chelsea and Man City will be in their prime with top teams and we will still be in our infancy as a new team. Being completely realistic we need to finish top four this season, have a title challenge next season but probably just miss out with a real chance of winning the league in the 16/17 season. And that won't change no matter who is in charge. It was always going to take 2/3 years to rebuild the club.
LvG has shown himself as a manager who although he may not always leave a club on good terms he always leaves the club in the best possible position for the next manager to take over. He steadies the ship and builds a great group of players who know how to control possession and play good football, what the next manager wants to do with that is up to them.
That is what i expect him to do for us, steady the ship, bring a more modern approach to the team and leave us in great shape for the next manager whoever that may be.
We may have a good defensive record but we don't seem to be able to score playing a back 3.
So it was lvg who bought all those players?
30 mil for herrera and he can't get in the team .
{Ed007's Note - Was Di Maria bought for footballing reasons or did Utd sign him just because they could and to flex their financial muscle? Sure he's a good player but he wasn't what Utd needed last summer, neither was Falcoa who I've always thought was only at OT to prove his fitness (or lack of) to Real Madrid.}
Shappy - We only look like we are progressing from last season when he plays 4-4-2 - yet he doesn't want to do this. Whenever we play 3-5-2 we look awful.
This rebuild is being over-egged as well, many managers could have come in with the squad and finances and produced better football and picked up more points. Are you seriously telling me that a Premier League Winning team can fall this far so quickly, it was mis-managed by Moyes and is being mis-managed by LVG.
Just because its a tricky job it doesn't mean LVG is the right person for it.
Transfers - He doesn't seem to rate Herrera or Shaw, he is playing ADM as a striker now, he is not playing Falcao when he can get away with it. Blind & Rojo are utility players, last ditch players in fact!
Why authorise the signings if they are not suitable to his preferred system?
You can't seriously tell me that LVG has spent wisely so far for what he wants. The players he has signed are good on paper but he is not doing the right thing with them, as our performances show.
Youngs improvement is good, but it's lifting him from a 2 to a 6/7, arguably where he should be anyway. Are you seriously using DDG to strengthen your argument?
RVP looks worse than last season, just what is Rooney doing in 75% of games, Mata has done nothing, one or two good games out of 20! Valencia, hardly doing much to be honest. Fellaini is looking better, but I felt Moyes was too afraid to play him properly, so its hardly a fair judgement.
Its impossible to get everything wrong, but LVG is doing his best to get there for me, for every positive there are 3 or 4 negatives!
Lets see how we do against Cambridge!
22 Jan 2015 16:29:24
Beast in not sure if your old enough to remember the last title winning Liverpool team, but their fall from grace was epic, a couple of seasons of seasons of souness and 20 years later they still haven't recovered, despite the odd flash, a couple of cups etc.
I think you underestimate the rebuild needed. Thinking back to fergies last season pretty much every player at some point got pelters. And I believe it was shahram who said we needed 10 + signings. Many laughed at that but today you can see its correct.
I age the football isn't great but I can see what he's trying to do and urge patience. I hope I am correct. If not ill get my pitchfork and cantona mask and join you.
Lastly I haven't seen anything as bad as a certain game last year where we had 80 crosses in the game and failed to score
Beast the rebuild has certainly not been over egged, if it was that simple then why has one good manager failed and in your own opinion LvG failing too if it was that easy? LvG is a top manager, he has the CV to prove it, you could argue that maybe he isn't as good as he was 10 years ago. But still a top manager.
Your being either wonderfully innocent or extremely niave to thin it would be that simple. Just ask the posters who were around for the last time a long standing manager left in Sir Matt Busby and they will tell you it isn't an easy task.
Yes Moyes took a team of Champions and took them to 7th, but if we are painfully honest Sir Alex winning his final league title was nothing short of a miracle with the squad we had, three of our back four were well past it, we had a top prospect in goal but he was still very green and another good prospect at RB but one who couldn't stay fit. In midfield our best player was Carrick a good player but certainly not a great one, next to him you had Tom Cleverley and the less said about him the better with Valencia Young and Giggs in his twilight years out wide, You had Rooney who has always been a bit hit and miss when it comes to scoring consistently and RvP upfront supported by the world beat that is Welbeck.
We won that title by sheer force of will from the greatest manager who ever lived. If anyone else was managing that team they would have been very very lucky to scrape top four. Then Sir Alex left, and Moyes came in and only brought Fellaini with him. It was certainly a season too far for our older players and with no quality coming in until January with Mata it was a true refection of the quality of our squad come the end of the season. We had a couple of world class players a few good but ageing players and a large group of players who just weren't good enough.
So now LvG has to rebuild a team that rightfully finished 7th.
You can't seem to work out why LvG bought some players to then not use them or use them in a different way to which you expected? Well i guess that's why he has a wonderful footballing CV and we don't.
Sometimes we have to accept we don't know better than the guys employed to do a job they are an expert in.
Its most likely though that he does intend to use them but with the deficiencies within the squad simply doesn't allow him to use them as he wants just yet. We only have one world class or even top drawer winger in Di Maria for example so playing a system that relies on wing play would be foolish, first off the guy playing on the other wing isn't unto standard and secondly what happens if Di Maria gets sent off or is injured? Your left with a very poor team. but Di Maria can play in midfield, could Lvg not be planning on playing him there until the end of the season and he can bring in the quality of players he needs to be able to play with wingers?
These players(other than Falcao) haven't signed one year contracts but multiple year ones, where they play while LvG is building the squad he needs might not be where they play once he has finished it.
Ultimately LvG will be looking at the final goal, the team needs to finish in the top four, LvG having seen his players on the training ground every day has decided that he needs a more defensively sound system to get him there.
Would you rather watch boring 352 football this year and secure a champions league place and be able to watch champions league football again next year or play more exciting 4312 football and finish 5th and not be back at Europes top table next year?
Southampton away a game we won this year was as bad as i have seen united for a long time .
MrE,
I was just getting into football in 1990 I was 9. I do understand that we need to be patient, but with the right manager.
That Fulham game was crazy, but I think we crossed the ball more that game than we have all season so far! It was stupid of Moyes but we at least camped in their half rather than our own.
Believe me I am a very patient person, but only if my patience isn't being abused. There has to be a bit of give the other way and all LVG is doing is take, he is zapping the finances, zapping the enjoyment and zapping what Man Utd stand for.
Shaps
Or like the ed has said before a few where club signings and not strictly lvg .
There seems a lot of excuses for lvg, what if he's just getting it wrong .
Stats can be misleading as we all know.
1. Our defenders are not as bad as this managers makes them out to be and hence justifying his screwed up system.
2. DDG has significantly helped in that area and i see a lot of posters using stats to Back LVG's set up.
A simple and honest observation is we look awful on the offensive front and any time teams apply pressure we look like conceding so this 532 system to me is all wrong and just one man's fishing expedition.
I am willing to bet it will be his downfall and he will get the sack if he sticks to it as we will not win enough points to qualify for CL. 7 months onwards and he has Rooney playing as CM and Di Maria playing as a striker with a fully fit squad.
God help us as RVP is now also back so back to falling sleep watching us play and Falcao back to the bench.