27 May 2020 17:26:46
Hey Ed2 just wanted to know what's the latest if any in regards to United's pursuit of Jude Bellingham.

{Ed002's Note - As far as I know the situation remains with Jude Bellingham that Birmingham want more than £30M for the kid and know that there are clubs from across Europe interested in him, including clubs who can afford to take the risks and clubs who will give him a chance of first team football before the likes of Manchester United (who are very keen). Manchester United have done nothing to try and complete the transfer but propose a low fee and bonuses over a number of years but the player wants a road map which the club can't offer. Dortmund have continued discussions and have thought for a while that they will reach a formal agreement.}


1.) 27 May 2020
27 May 2020 21:43:09
Amateurs at it again?


2.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 08:35:01
peter?

amateurs risking offloading more than 30 million for a 16 year old child? who is no where near the level for the first team?


3.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 10:33:59
I have said previously that although clearly a very talented young player I struggle to see how he fits in to a United first team.

He is too young to be loaned out, while at the same time we have Matic, Fred, McTominay, Bruno and Pogba currently as first team midfielders. While we are looking at players such as Saul if Pogba leaves. Which means at best Bellingham would be one of 6 players fighting it out for one of the three staring midfield positions. While doing so against vastly more experienced players.

A move to United will either result in time on the bench in the first team or playing Under 23's. Neither of which are better than playing every week in the Championship with Birmingham.

I think Bellingham is at a vital moment in his young career, look at Odegaard, moving to Real Madrid at 16 years old. He is only just looking like getting his career back on track now at 22, SIX years after making the move.

If he moves to a club too far up the football ladder he risks spending most of his time on the bench and stagnating. He needs game time, either continuing at the level he is at or maybe at a higher level. I think the key thing is for him to realise he doesn't have to rush. Which is probably the hardest thing to appreciate at 16 years old. He needs to believe in himself and appreciate that if he is good enough then opportunities to join the biggest clubs will always be open to him. But to be a great player you need to be playing, every week.

Look at Angel Gomes, one of the most gifted players from our academy, yet Bellingham three years his junior is rated just as highly if not a little higher based off nothing more than playing every week albeit at a lower level.

My advice to all young players is go where you will play, you learn between 20-30% of your footballing knowledge through training, the rest can only be learned and developed through playing actual matches.

Look at our own academy this season, Williams didn't make the pre-season tour squad, yet due to actually playing games this season (due to injuries) he has managed to jump ahead of players such as Garner, Gomes and Laird who were all rated higher than him this time last year.

Personally I think Bellingham is best off signing a professional contract with Birmingham, play there next season then move to a mid-tier sized club the following summer, stay there for a couple of years then move to a top level club still only aged 19/ 20 years old, but in a position to fight for a first team spot every week.

Playing for the biggest clubs is an end goal, at 16 the only goal you should be considering is how to develop yourself.


4.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 12:07:30
My point wasn’t about wether the player should be signed or not. Wasn’t even to do with the amount of money being mentioned.
United clearly want the player As they are offering instalments but just fly by the seat of their pants when it comes to negotiating. Why would you not supply a road map for a young player and why would the player even need to ask for this.

Kid should go to Dortmund.


5.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 12:08:18
Agree Shappy that young players only develop through playing. But if you’re good enough you’ll come through to the first team. In time. Look at Giggs and Rooney, Owen as examples. Is Bellingham in that tier though? Time will tell. Best of both worlds for United is to secure his transfer now but loan back for 2 seasons. Pogba definitely gone by then though hopefully replaced by Saul. Matic likely to leave then also.


6.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 12:31:48
Halesini, He can't be loaned back until he is at least 18 years old. The rules do not allow the loan of players under the age of 18.

So if we sign him the only options are to play him in the first team, or in the Under 23's. As I have said there are significant hurdles for him to play in the first team and the Under 23's is a much lower standard than he is playing currently.

This was the issue Real Madrid had with Odegaard. They signed him but he couldn't get enough game time in the first team, but at least they could play him for the B side in the second division. Although ultimately he stagnated, he was then loaned out to three clubs I think since he turned 18 and it is only this year at the age of 22 that he has managed to kick on.

Bellingham could end up in a potentially a worse situation at United as if he doesn't play in the first team then the Under 23's is a much lower level than that the Real Madrid B team play.

I think the other examples you mention such as Giggs, Rooney and Owen all managed it with significantly less competition for places. With only one or two players in the first team fighting them for a first team spot. Bellingham would have 5 maybe 6 players he would be competing with for a first team spot.

Now although he has been impressive in the Championship, the EPL is a step up and he is very young. I would probably say he isn't ready to play most weeks for a side near the top of the EPL. The lad needs to learn to walk before he can run.


7.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 13:21:49
you said amateurs at it again? in reply to the ed saying we put a low offer with addons and bonuses.


is that not realistic for a player who is 16.


not having a go just my opinion on the post.


8.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 13:58:12
He doesn't need to be loaned back Shappy, we could just arrange the transfer date to be next season.

This signing isn't about plugging a hole in the squad now. It is the "biggest" club in England signing the most talented kid in England. Spend 30 million now so you don't have to spend 100 million in 3 years.

Not many are batting an eyelid at spending £150 million on Sancho. This is more than just "where does the kid play". We have rolled out the red carpet for him and his family. Got Sir Alex to show him around Carrington. Activtely trying to sign an English kid and he will turn us down to play in Germany.

This is a signing that a proactive club makes. We have been offering low balling bids that will get us nowhere. We're the equalivant of a poser that goes to the gym just to take selfies and not do the hard work. Then to keep up we take some steroids (Sanchez), short term effects look great but it will kill us in the long run.


9.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 14:50:22
Mumbles, I think the issue stems from the fact that currently Bellingham hasn't signed a professional deal with Birmingham as he isn't yet old enough. So Birmingham cannot "sell" him currently. If he doesn't sign a professional deal with Birmingham then he could in theory sign for any club for just a compensation fee (which if pushed to tribunal would likely be a few million at most.

However, my understanding is the Bellingham family have agreed to sign pro-deal so that Birmingham can receive a large fee for him.

So clubs are reluctant to just agree to a 30m deal or whatever Birmingham are asking for, given that in theory he could be available for a tenth of that. While I don't think there is a rule that would allow you to sign a player now, but not register him at your club for 18 months. The closest you might get is him signing a permanent deal with Birmingham and then United agreeing to sign him for a fixed fee at the end of next season. However, I have no idea how legal that sort of arrangement would be, or why Birmingham would agree to it as depending on the market and how he develops over next season he could be worth significantly more.

While it's fair to say that in three years time he could be worth significantly more, given the current situation and the likely knock on effects in terms of transfer fees I think its right that clubs don't just jump and and throw 30m around for a 16 year old like its nothing. Likewise clubs could have spent 30m or 40m on a 17 year old Januzaj, or Macheda players who at 17/ 18 years old looked destined to become top players. Yet in hindsight that would have been an awful investment.
Barcelona thought 140m for Dembele would be a sound investment, thinking the market would only continue to grow. Yet, the kid has struggled for fitness and form and the market has dropped significantly.

We signed Nick Powell as a future England star midfielder from the Championship.

Bellingham looks a future great player, but he is 16 years old and a lot can happen between now and when he should be entering his peak years in TEN years time. He could suffer serious injury, he could go off the rails with a huge contract giving him too much too soon, or he could lose focus on football and not develop as many think he will.

Freddy Adu was going to be the next Ronaldo (Brazilian), yet he made very few top flight appearances in Europe.

The club are trying to sign the lad, and they have done several things in order to tempt him. I've stated the issues with providing a 16 year old with a "road map" into the first team. The club can't loan him out, and they certainly can't guarantee him any first team football beyond him being part of the squad and competing for a first team place.

As for the club making "proactive" signings, last summer we signed AWB, James and Maguire. Two are good young prospects who have made an impact while the eldest player signed is now our club captain. We then signed a 25 year old Bruno in January a player who in his few appearances looks like he could arguably be our best player (albeit only on a small sample size) . Ighalo might fit into your analogy of short term fixes, yet the idea of not signing a long term prospect in striker position could be linked to the club having one eye on the development of one of our own super talented young players in Mason Greenwood.


10.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 15:22:07
Mumbles like I’ve already said. My point was the fact we refused to give a young player a road map. That’s what I find amateurish. If you read again you will see I make that very clear.


11.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 15:34:09
We could sign Bellingham and leave him at Birmingham for a season. It wouldn't be a loan, it would be agreeing a transfer date in the future.

Your hypothetical scenarios could work for any transfer. The fact is that we are losing out on a young English target to Dortmund.

As the biggest club in England, we should not be losing out on the most promising 16 year old in the country, who we are actively trying to buy.


12.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 15:38:43
Peter, what sort of a "road map" do you think the club should be giving him?

We can't loan him out, so his options are under 23's or the first team.

Are you suggesting that our club with 142 years worth of history, a club that has had some of the greatest players ever grace the turf of Old Trafford should be guaranteeing a 16 year old a place in the staring 11 ahead of Pogba, Bruno, Fred, Matic and McTominay?

You say road map like its an obvious and clear thing. What sort of guarantees should the club be giving him.

For me regardless of who you are or what you have achieved you still need to earn your starting spot.

Reports in the press suggest the club have said that if signed Bellingham has been told he will be part of the first team squad.

That in my opinion is about as far as the club can go. He might get more chances at other clubs, and if playing every week is what is important to him then good on him and he will probably have to go elsewhere to get that, he certainly will if he wants guarantees of game time.


13.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 17:45:04
Shappy
The lad shouldn't get any guarantees at all with first team exactly the same as gomes if u get the chance you take it. But i would love the club to grab a young potentially good player and try to develop him inhouse. We could always make it a future transfer for next summer with then loans the season after. The club has risked a ton lately on the likes of alexis giving ddg a mass deal when we had henderson. Risking on a young lad might be a change of pace. 2-3 seasons we don't know who will be in midfield n he could or could not slot straight in but if he wants it enough I've always thought were a team that can develop some great talents. i'd love to go back to that rather than double or tripple every players wage we want to sign n then they come in and coast.


14.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 17:50:17
Mumbles, what I'm saying is there is no precedent for a club agreeing the transfer of a player, but not signing them for over a year so they could stay at their current club. Let alone the issues regarding his age.

We would be in New territory and I'm not sure whether that would be within the laws of the game.

While I'm not sure what Birmingham stand to gain from agreeing to sell a player in a year's time for a fixed fee. What sort of legal protections does either side have in case of a career ending injury?

Would it still be in there best interests to play him?

I would imagine the reality is we sign him this summer or we don't. If we do then he has to stay with us until he is at least 18. Which means January 2022 is the earliest he could leave on loan.


15.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 19:08:18
Reason to wait and see on Bellingham
Garner
Levitt
Gomes
Hannibal

Granted we are yet to see the role these guys and Jude will play long term and is why along with loan reason I’d wait and see.

(FM suggestion: agreed purchase date as end of next season + loan back, keeps him at Brum till 22.)

{Ed002's Note - I am not sure Dortmund will be looking to sell him next season.}


16.) 28 May 2020
28 May 2020 22:39:30
Ed002, I'm pretty sure the answer will be no. But is it possible for a club to agree a deal to sign a player over a year in advance?

I've never heard of it, but it seems like it's something that you can do on FM, or I'm not sure where the idea is coming from.

So could United agree to sign Bellingham in the summer of 2021? And how legally binding would that be?

{Ed002's Note - Sure. Keita to Liverpool is an example. RvN to MU another. Contracts can be written and signed but no such proposal is being made.}